10a MCB lighting circuit and 2a sockets

Don't think I'd want 6' of flex on my toaster, kettle etc.
*with the exception of kitchen appliances which are used on a countertop OBVIOUSLY


(hairdryers on beds is a HUGE cause of fire in the UK).
Where's the data which shows that?
Do a bit of research. Enlighten yourself. When I was at university, there was a huge problem with hairdryers (and straighteners) setting fire to beds in dorm rooms because students were using them to get clothes dry. The thermal cutout would trip, they'd dump them on the bed, later the cutout would reset, setting fire to the bed.

And can you explain how having the facility use hairdryers in the bathroom prevents people from using them in the bedroom if they want to?
If you were a woman, would you rather a) perch somewhere in a dim-lit bedroom trying to dry your hair and get ready or b) stand in front of a nice big mirror in a brightly-lit bathroom with all your makeup and crap to hand on the counter?


We've required RCD protection for sockets likely to be used to supply things outdoors for decades. And now for all sockets, indoors and out.
You and I both know how many houses in this country still have no RCD protection, and I think you'll find it's a majority. 70's and 80's rewires commonly had no RCD protection of RCD/(CGFI) outlets. The US has required CGFI outlets in 'wet locations' since 1968 with full code in 1980.


The current requirements for those sorts of appliances are a lot lower here than in the US because the voltage here is twice what is is there.
WRONG. Alot of high-current US appliances are 240v (two-phase) requiring 4-prong plugs and dedicated lines, dictating where in the house the appliances can be used. A 13a British tumble dryer will draw close to full 13amps for at least an hour. Most wiring accessories/extension cords just aren't 'beefy' enough to handle it, let along something else plugged in too.


Where's the data which shows those things?
again, do a little googling. Enlighten yourself. You'll find a lot of news stories for downlighter fires in Australia which have similar electrical product specifications as British ones. Then google 'Insulation suitable can light US' you'll find no worthy equivalent in the UK apart from a select few which have 'heat sinks' fitted to the top.


Regulations contradict eachother,
Yes they do. Part L requires continuous insulation across the roof space. Electrical regulations require adequate spacing around downlighters. Most builders and electicians are at odds to come up with a method of fully satisfying both requirements, short of hashing up DIY boxes from plasterboard or metal or using 'downlighter caps' (which cause the downlighter to overheat by the way)


Here too you must use luminaires which are appropriate.
The choice and availability of fittings which satisfy being: airtight, insulation-suitable, fire and acoustic-rated (and sometimes IP rated for specific bathroom zones aswell) is not widely accessible, or even in existence?. DIY stores do not stock them, and they are usually an order-only item, with most qualified electricians being virtually unaware of their existence. Most electricians are also only familiar with electrical regulations, and are unaware of various building regulations (Part L). And builders fail to communicate with electricians (or plumbers and vica versa) on many accounts.
 
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No so. 3 5A sockets are allowed on a 15A fuse. A 2A socket is deemed to supply 1/2 A and 10 are allowed on a 5A fuse.

Both 5A and 2A plugs are available with fuses if you are worried. But just look at the construction of a 2A plug, it can surely carry much more. Remember these size connectors were designed in the days of DC supplies, you can pull them out on full load using DC with no problems.
this has more than answered my original question, I thought the same, but I wasn't sure whether I was correct or not.
 
No so. 3 5A sockets are allowed on a 15A fuse. A 2A socket is deemed to supply 1/2 A and 10 are allowed on a 5A fuse.
this has more than answered my original question, I thought the same, but I wasn't sure whether I was correct or not.
Has it been agreed that these limits are regulations?

If so, why?
 
Don't think I'd want 6' of flex on my toaster, kettle etc.
*with the exception of kitchen appliances which are used on a countertop OBVIOUSLY
...................................................
and loads of other rubbish statements without any supporting evidence.
I repeat what I said earlier:
ok thanks. There are 17x50w recessed lights, 4x60w recessed lights, a chandelier with 8x40w lamps, two 40w wall sconces, one 40w pendant, 2 extractor fans and 4 more 40w lights.
This statement simply reflects your general lack of knowledge, understanding or appreciation of lighting and circuit design.

By the way, hiding your previous misdemeanors behind the privacy block doesn't mean your electrical work, stupid statements and even worse advice simple goes away. You are after all, just a search away.
Your comments then and here continue to inspire no confidence in your work.
 
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and loads of other rubbish statements without any supporting evidence.
I repeat what I said earlier
But you're not making any point here, at all. Factual or theoretical. Maybe if you read more, international news, traveled more, generally interested yourself in affairs outside of your immediate scope of british electrical installation regulations, you might understand where I'm coming from and the point I'm trying to make (or reassure myself of). Most people who get involved with electrical installation (DIY'ers) have even less knowledge than me, apparently, about lighting design. Shock horror. Let's say, that the majority of perfect, full compliant, qualified electrician-installed installations never cause any problems (fire or electrocution). However, the vast majority of installations are not of that nature. And the lacking prescriptiveness of the regs, or consideration by electricians in regards to various user-related situations will never prevent Sarah the accountant from plugging her tumble dryer in an unventillated cupboard into an extension cord along with a washing machine into a twin socket outside the cupboard also supplying a dishwasher, and occasionally the microwave (by means of a nice handy two-way unfused brick adaptor from poundland) protected by a 32a MCB. Let's hope she remembered to change the battery in the smoke detector.
 
Has it been agreed that these limits are regulations?

If so, why?
well, in actual fact, thinking about it, this isn't the case. You can have as many 13a sockets on a 20a or 30a radial as you want. Therefore you can have as many 5a sockets on a 15a radial, or 2a sockets on a 10a radial as you want, because, in theory, only one 13a, 5a or 2a appliance can be plugged in and draw current from each individual socket respectively. Only 2a appliances can be plugged into 2a sockets. It is the supply cable to all the sockets combined which must be able to handle the fused current of the MCB. If the load of all individual appliances plugged into any number of individual sockets on the same circuit at the same time collectively exceeds the MCB (and cable) load, the MCB will trip.
 
In Australia they have had problems with the blades breaking as the metal is so thin once sleeving is on it. Broken blades left in sockets, safe or not.
:eek: oh dear. And I thought it was bad when the plastic earth prong snaps off in a British socket. It would be better if the terminals in the socket were back far enough so that you have to push a plug in entirely before the prongs actually contact the terminals. You wouldn't need sleeving at all then Simple logic. Oh well.
 
But you're not making any point here, at all. Factual or theoretical. Maybe if you read more, international news, traveled more, generally interested yourself in affairs outside of your immediate scope of british electrical installation regulations, you might understand where I'm coming from and the point I'm trying to make (or reassure myself of).
That's it, I don't understand your point - you make wild statements about this and that without any evidence in support then you suggest that I should not focus on UK installations and concentrate on international ones - why?

It is a bit difficult for me to take you seriously when you consider yourself competent yet still feel the need to fit at least 1.3kw of lighting in your house. Absolute madness!
Competent because you feel that manufacturers instructions are there to be ignored.
Competent because you believe most down lighters don't need to be earthed and when no earth is present a 1.0/1.5mm ² is all that is needed.
Competent because you believed that twisting cables together is standard practice.
Most people who get involved with electrical installation (DIY'ers) have even less knowledge than me, apparently, about lighting design. Shock horror.
All this eventually led to a comment from one contributor:
it's not ideal, but if you want to fit the grey sheathed cable (T&E) into that light fitting, you'll have to just snip off the Earth (green/yellow) wire as close as possible to the sheathing and leave it unconnected.
tew - please stop giving people advice - you are sh*te at it.

Let's say, that the majority of perfect, full compliant, qualified electrician-installed installations never cause any problems (fire or electrocution). However, the vast majority of installations are not of that nature. And the lacking prescriptiveness of the regs, or consideration by electricians in regards to various user-related situations will never prevent Sarah the accountant from plugging her tumble dryer in an unventillated cupboard into an extension cord along with a washing machine into a twin socket outside the cupboard also supplying a dishwasher, and occasionally the microwave (by means of a nice handy two-way unfused brick adaptor from poundland) protected by a 32a MCB. Let's hope she remembered to change the battery in the smoke detector.
Are you suggesting that overload sockets doesn't happen in the US or elsewhere in the world - get real?
 
:eek: oh dear. And I thought it was bad when the plastic earth prong snaps off in a British socket. It would be better if the terminals in the socket were back far enough so that you have to push a plug in entirely before the prongs actually contact the terminals. You wouldn't need sleeving at all then Simple logic. Oh well.
For a reliable connection there has to be a significant ammount of overlap between the pins on the plug and the contacts in the socket. Therefore contact WILL be made before the plug is fully inserted.

If you want to protect the pins from being touched during this time you have essentially two options, either you partially insulate the pins or you design the socket with a cavity.
 
tew1";p="2920195 said:
What I'm saying is, if the UK had a dedicated type of socket for high-current appliances, the general public would only be able to plug them into dedicated lines in appropriate places in the house, remedying this awful situation we have where people are installing tumble dryers in inappropriate places like sheds, home offices, stacked on shelves in cupboards e.t.c. and plugging them into cheap extension leads which simply do not cope with a full 13amp load.

We do. There is a 30 amp connector, like a lager version of the 15 amp BS546 connector. Also there is a 32 amp version of the commando connector. But no domestic appliance in the UK draws more than 13 amps so they are not relavent.
 
Do a bit of research. Enlighten yourself.
Actually - no - you need to grasp that it doesn't work that way. If you make a claim, it is for you to prove it, not for others to go and do work to see if you are right.


When I was at university, there was a huge problem with hairdryers (and straighteners) setting fire to beds in dorm rooms because students were using them to get clothes dry. The thermal cutout would trip, they'd dump them on the bed, later the cutout would reset, setting fire to the bed.
So not at all representative of the normal use for hairdryers.

And can you explain how having the facility use hairdryers in the bathroom prevents people from using them in the bedroom if they want to?
If you were a woman, would you rather a) perch somewhere in a dim-lit bedroom trying to dry your hair and get ready or b) stand in front of a nice big mirror in a brightly-lit bathroom with all your makeup and crap to hand on the counter?
I'd rather use it where I preferred. So I'll ask you again, can you explain how having the facility use hairdryers in the bathroom prevents people from using them in the bedroom if they want to?

And can you explain how having the facility use hairdryers in the bathroom prevents people from using them in the bedroom to dry clothes, which is what you say is responsible for the HUGE problem of fires in the UK.


You and I both know how many houses in this country still have no RCD protection, and I think you'll find it's a majority. 70's and 80's rewires commonly had no RCD protection of RCD/(CGFI) outlets. The US has required CGFI outlets in 'wet locations' since 1968 with full code in 1980.
We used to have a complete ban on sockets in "wet locations". And have all US houses now been rewired since 1980?


WRONG. Alot of high-current US appliances are 240v (two-phase) requiring 4-prong plugs and dedicated lines, dictating where in the house the appliances can be used.
Which is why you need special outlets, and we don't.


A 13a British tumble dryer will draw close to full 13amps for at least an hour. Most wiring accessories/extension cords just aren't 'beefy' enough to handle it, let along something else plugged in too.
That's not what BS 1363 says.


again, do a little googling. Enlighten yourself.
Again, no. Again you need to grasp that it doesn't work that way. If you make a claim, it is for you to prove it, not for others to go and do work to see if you are right.


Yes they do. Part L requires continuous insulation across the roof space. Electrical regulations require adequate spacing around downlighters.
Both can be done - they are not mutually exclusive.


The choice and availability of fittings which satisfy being: airtight, insulation-suitable, fire and acoustic-rated (and sometimes IP rated for specific bathroom zones aswell) is not widely accessible, or even in existence?. DIY stores do not stock them
That's not because they are not required, nor is it because the regulations are contradictory.


and they are usually an order-only item, with most qualified electricians being virtually unaware of their existence.
There are always going to be ignorant and incompetent people. Those that are are not like that because of contradictory regulations.


Most electricians are also only familiar with electrical regulations, and are unaware of various building regulations (Part L).
They have been legally required to be familiar with all of the Building Regulations for nearly 9 years. If they are not it is not because of contradictory regulations.
 
Do a bit of research. Enlighten yourself.
I did do a bit, which has enlightened me.

The USA has about 5 x the population of the UK.

And 8.5 x the number of people killed annually by electrical fires.
 
The USA has about 5 x the population of the UK.

And 8.5 x the number of people killed annually by electrical fires.
You will seriously bend, and even fabricate information whatever possible way to prove they you are right and assert authority. The US Fire Administration and FEMA publish 280 annual deaths from electrical fire in the US. The electrical safety council publish 46 annual deaths by electrical fire in the UK. There are 26100 electrical fires in the US annually, and there are 20403 electrical fires in the UK annually.
http://www.esc.org.uk/industry/policies-and-research/statistics/
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/citizens/home_fire_prev/electrical.shtm
 
The US Fire Administration and FEMA publish 280 annual deaths from electrical fire in the US.
Fair enough.
The electrical safety council publish 244 annual deaths by electrical fire in the UK.
That would be 46, not 244. As you should be able to see, 244 is the total of all deaths in all accidental domestic fires, but the figure for electrical ones is 46 - and even of that 46, 11 of the fires were due to 'misuse' and 10 due to 'objects too close to heat', so only really 25.

Kind Regards, John
 

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