20 MPH speed limits, legal or not?

[ericmark]

the hybrid I've just bought plays 'noise' (externally), best described as muzak when the ICE isn't running under 20mph.

Mind you it also plays a 'tune' when the go or power button is pressed; annoys the wife immensely!

Good idea, but only with new cars, many old cars do not have that noise. Many rules are not retrospective, so with e-bikes rules now say any throttle must deactivate after 4 MPH, but mine built before that rule, so still has a throttle, we could have same rules as trains, must blow whistle before starting to move, and where they run without being fenced in, also must have a bell, the 'noise' played by the hybrid is same as bell on railway engine.

 

[ericmark]

I had a Ford with the infinitely variable transmission, same idea as old DAF cars, but steel belt on rubber, the engine tone stayed the same, but speed would slowly creep up, there was no way to judge road speed from engine noise.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Makes you wonder why it's a legal requirement to have a speedometer, if it's really as easy as you say...

It's there to meet several needs - when you first begin driving a strange car, it can be very difficult to get used to the speed you are actually doing, so it's there as a reality check. It is also there to confirm once you are used to a car, that you haven't allowed your assessment of speed to vary.

In the distant past, if they caught you speeding, they would ask you if your speedo was working and sometimes offer to check it with you against their calibrated speedo - so you couldn't use that as an excuse for your speeding.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I had a Ford with the infinitely variable transmission, same idea as old DAF cars, but steel belt on rubber, the engine tone stayed the same, but speed would slowly creep up, there was no way to judge road speed from engine noise.

My experience of those Variomatics was that even driven flat out, it was difficult to get them to exceed the limits

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

There are lots of 20MPH roads in Edinburgh. Some of them are big wide roads with no traffic calming. I'd say that the majority of people ignore them and I'm told that they are not enforceable because the speed cameras are not calibrated to speeds under 30MPH. Whether or not there is any truth in that is another matter but, I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for breaking a 20 limit.

OK - Concerned at the 30 and then the later 20 being completely ignored in the village, I bullied the police into running some enforcement and was invited to join them enforcing around several very local 20 roads. Almost without fail all were doing greater than 20, many doing much more than 30. Any doing less than 30 were just given a verbal warning, one doing 35 was a double decker bus, on a scheduled route who was let off with a comment of 'he had a timetable to meet' - WHAT?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

With a 4 speed geared car I can judge speed by engine tone, with a infinitely variable transmission engine revs mean nothing, and with 8 speed automatics again hard to tell from engine noise, occasion glances at the speedo, means glances away from the road, and at 20 MPH the hybrids run on electric only, at 30 MPH most have petrol engine running, so in many ways more dangerous at 20 MPH as one does not hear the car coming.

The speed with which the scenery goes past you, is also a major clue.

 

[Avocet]

Enforced, except when they are too busy, which is all of the time.

I wish! It's far too lucrative though.

 

[Avocet]

OK - Concerned at the 30 and then the later 20 being completely ignored in the village, I bullied the police into running some enforcement and was invited to join them enforcing around several very local 20 roads. Almost without fail all were doing greater than 20, many doing much more than 30. Any doing less than 30 were just given a verbal warning, one doing 35 was a double decker bus, on a scheduled route who was let off with a comment of 'he had a timetable to meet' - WHAT?

By the time they're being so widely ignored, you have to ask yourself if they're actually appropriate. For the last few decades, we have focused on speeding and little else, yet the deaths and serious injuries for the country as a whole, have remained stubbornly flat. Having then decided that the medicine wasn't working, we have started reducing speed limits right, left and centre (as well as even more enforcement) and guess what? The deaths and serious injuries continue to flatline.

I wonder, at what point, someone is going to start wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Avocet]

The speed with which the scenery goes past you, is also a major clue.

Depends how much scenery and how close it is. Driving down a narrow street with cars parked either side, will always feel faster than driving along a road of the same width, but with everything set back a long way from the sides of the road.

 

[Avocet]

It's there to meet several needs - when you first begin driving a strange car, it can be very difficult to get used to the speed you are actually doing, so it's there as a reality check. It is also there to confirm once you are used to a car, that you haven't allowed your assessment of speed to vary.

In the distant past, if they caught you speeding, they would ask you if your speedo was working and sometimes offer to check it with you against their calibrated speedo - so you couldn't use that as an excuse for your speeding.

I've had this discussion so many times, with various people who claim they can judge their speed accurately without a speedo but I've yet to meet one who really can, in all circumstances. Even in a familiar car, if you put someone on a wide, flat, open area, they end up going way faster than they think they are. The converse is true too. Add hills into the equation and they generally can't either. Snow is another good one. Anything that changes what you're used to. (Which is, of course, why cars have speedometers).

Sure, I could drive without a speedo and not exceed a 20 limit, by driving a LOT slower than 20, but as speed limit enforcement gets ever more draconian, the vast majority of the vehicles will be driving as close to it as they dare in order to keep traffic flowing. In fact, more and more are relying on GPS rather than the speedometer, because it will get them another 1 or 2 MPH.

Having a defective speedometer is a separate offence. Thee days, if you try to use that as an excuse, you'll just get another fine.

 

[Avocet]

My experience of those Variomatics was that even driven flat out, it was difficult to get them to exceed the limits

They also don't really stay at constant revs all the time. If you try to max one out, they will go to whatever RPM they develop maximum power at.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

By the time they're being so widely ignored, you have to ask yourself if they're actually appropriate. For the last few decades, we have focused on speeding and little else, yet the deaths and serious injuries for the country as a whole, have remained stubbornly flat. Having then decided that the medicine wasn't working, we have started reducing speed limits right, left and centre (as well as even more enforcement) and guess what? The deaths and serious injuries continue to flatline.

I wonder, at what point, someone is going to start wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree?

I often see 40 or 50 going up my street, which is intimidating for many. Does it really matter if it helping improve the numbers, what is important is quality of life for other's, than those tearing around.

 

[motorbiking]

The absence of self enforcing features does not in itself render the speed limit unenforceable. However if the 20mph zone limit sign is used (black edge) it must have speed controlling features not more than 100m apart. If the 20mph round sign is used it must have repeaters and they are not to be approved in areas where the speed of traffic is not already low.

Once a repeater is missing or illegible the speed limit itself can be argued to be unenforceable reverting to either 30mph (system of street lights placed less than 183m apart) or National speed limit (no lights placed) missing terminal signs make the repeaters unenforceable.

 

[Munroast]

By the time they're being so widely ignored, you have to ask yourself if they're actually appropriate. For the last few decades, we have focused on speeding and little else, yet the deaths and serious injuries for the country as a whole, have remained stubbornly flat. Having then decided that the medicine wasn't working, we have started reducing speed limits right, left and centre (as well as even more enforcement) and guess what? The deaths and serious injuries continue to flatline.

I wonder, at what point, someone is going to start wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree?

reducing speed limits in built up areas is about much more than deaths and serious injuries. It is very important as a nation that we encourage 'active travel' (walking and cycling) this is so important at both an environmental and health level. The hope is if we can reduce speeds then the roads will become less unpleasant for those not in cars.

To some extent this is working, most people are driving a bit slower, I notice it most when I go down into Northumberland where 30mph is still the norm, it feels stupidly fast and quite antisocial now that I have got used with 20mph. The problem is the 20mph is not being enforced so the handful of boy-racers and Clarkson clones continue to drive like utter pratts. As a cyclist 99 cars can pass you carefully but that 1 idiot is the one that makes the entire experience unpleasant.

the 20 zones need candid and ruthless enforcement - I would give it to local authorities and allow them to keep the revenue. At the moment speed enforcent in Scotland is an expensive unwanted burden to the scottish police, with any revenue from fines sent off to the black hole of westminsters coffers.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

the 20 zones need candid and ruthless enforcement - I would give it to local authorities and allow them to keep the revenue. At the moment speed enforcent in Scotland is an expensive unwanted burden to the scottish police, with any revenue from fines sent off to the black hole of westminsters coffers.

Some areas have a voluntary organisation, with assistance from the police, where volunteers log the speed of speeding vehicles and report them back to the police. Under certain circumstances they will then be sent a warning letter and eventually prosecuted. I discussed this with a local chief constable, but the idea wasn't well received, mention was made of amateurs meddling, equipment being expensive and in desperately short supply even for officials.