I've just looked at that link. Have you seen the last post, only posted ¾ hour ago so 21:45?Thanks again John. A switch to select either of the socket circuits is a good idea.
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it sounds like an interlocked switched socket such as
32A 2 Pin + Earth 230V Interlocked Switched Socket IP44
Suitable for small commercial and industrial applicationswww.cef.co.uk
would meet the regulations.
No I hadn't, so thanks for bring that to our attention. I As you say, it says:I've just looked at that link. Have you seen the last post, only posted ¾ hour ago so 21:45?
I've already said that in terms of electrical common sense, an interlocked unshuttered socket would seem to satisfy the spirtit of BS 7671's requirement for shuttered sockets, so we're only talking about people who feel the need for strict compliance with the every word of BS7671.Has nobody thought to fit the unshuttered socket in an enclosure which can only be opened with a key and ensure that anyone with access to the key is correctly trained?
I'm not sure about that.If they don't define "household and similar use" then the only thing anyone can, in fact must, do is to use a dictionary/legal definition. ... So "household" is people, nothing to do with type of use, not synonymous with "domestic", and "household and similar use" isn't the same as "domestic and similar use".
I agree with you up to a point, in which case the regs' requirement for shuttered sockets would apply to any socket used by people who lived in the building whose electrical installation included that socket. However ........ If it's for use by the people living there, then it's household use, no matter how "non-domestic" it may be ...
I don't think that the fact that someone lives in a building necessarily means that everything they do in that building is a "household activity". A good few people live in buildings which are, at least partailly,clearly 'workplaces'.(e.g. 3-phase vehicle lift in the garage, ... or an extensive workshop at the bottom of the garden with a 5-axis milling machine).
As above, the reg we are discussing says nothing about 'domestic', so I'm not sure of the relevance of that comment. In any event, I don't agree with your statement as a generalisation. If I, for some mad reason, #locked away' one of the sockets in my house and restricted access to that,it would not necessarily preclude its use for 'household' (or 'domestic') purposes.But a "domestic" socket for a "domestic" use like a "domestic" vacuum cleaner is not household if for some mad reason it's locked and the only person who uses it is a visiting cleaner.
If they don't define "household and similar use" then the only thing anyone can, in fact must, do is to use a dictionary/legal definition.
So "household" is people, nothing to do with type of use, not synonymous with "domestic", and "household and similar use" isn't the same as "domestic and similar use".
If it's for use by the people living there, then it's household use, no matter how "non-domestic" it may be (e.g. 3-phase vehicle lift in the garage, or an extensive workshop at the bottom of the garden with a 5-axis milling machine). But a "domestic" socket for a "domestic" use like a "domestic" vacuum cleaner is not household if for some mad reason it's locked and the only person who uses it is a visiting cleaner.
FWIW my local church hall wouldn't let me fit Ceeforms some 4m above stage level because their preferred electrician had some bee in his bonnet about them being unsafe for children. When we did the AmDram shows we had to pay him to inspect our kit and would only accept stage lights fitted with them and an adapter cable if they were physically locked together.I'm going to regret getting involved in this, but...
If the user of the workshop only unlocks the box around the socket and plugs the milling machine in when she's on billable time to a client is the ceeform socket now allowed?
Would you consider the regulation permits such a socket in a church hall (where no one lives*)
*No, don't get all thological on me.... or if you must, the hall is completely detached from the church and on the other side of the road!
Webster does, but it's American.I'm not sure about that.
As you say, in the absence of a definition in the regs, one is left relying on dictionary/legal/'everyday use' definitions. Despite what you suggest, when "household" is used as an adjective (as in "household use") many dictionaries give a synonym as "domestic".
I agree with you up to a point, in which case the regs' requirement for shuttered sockets would apply to any socket used by people who lived in the building whose electrical installation included that socket.
I don't think that the fact that someone lives in a building necessarily means that everything they do in that building is a "household activity". A good few people live in buildings which are, at least partailly,clearly 'workplaces'.
My scenario was nobody in the household having access to it. If nobody in the household can use it, it's not household.As above, the reg we are discussing says nothing about 'domestic', so I'm not sure of the relevance of that comment. In any event, I don't agree with your statement as a generalisation. If I, for some mad reason, #locked away' one of the sockets in my house and restricted access to that,it would not necessarily preclude its use for 'household' (or 'domestic') purposes.
The problem is that it's all too easy to conjur up ever more "ah but what if she then" complicated paths where you arrive at the same destination (using the milling machine) but the journeys were different.I'm going to regret getting involved in this, but...
If the user of the workshop only unlocks the box around the socket and plugs the milling machine in when she's on billable time to a client is the ceeform socket now allowed?
Premises can be lived in, or not. A household is a particular group of people living together. If they don't live somewhere, then they are not household, even if they are together. For example a family outing to a restaurant. If nobody lives somewhere then when people go there, even if they are the household from the vicarage, what they do there isn't household use.Would you consider the regulation permits such a socket in a church hall (where no one lives*)
*No, don't get all thological on me.... or if you must, the hall is completely detached from the church and on the other side of the road!
Sounds like a few guys I've met in my time, and even some who have been known to post hereFWIW my local church hall wouldn't let me fit Ceeforms some 4m above stage level because their preferred electrician had some bee in his bonnet about them being unsafe for children. When we did the AmDram shows we had to pay him to inspect our kit and would only accept stage lights fitted with them and an adapter cable if they were physically locked together.
You're quote dictionary definitions of use of the word as a noun, but we (per BS 7671) are interested in its use as an adjective ("household use") - and many of the dictionaries don't seem to even give a definition of it as an adjective.Webster does, but it's American. .... Oxford Dictionary: noun. /ˈhaʊshəʊld/ /ˈhaʊshəʊld/ all the people living together in a house or flat. ... Cambridge Dictionary: a family or group of people who live together in a house.
So to understand, say, "garden use" you would need a definition of "garden" as an adjective, and you would be unsure what it meant if all you had was a definition of the noun "garden"?You're quote dictionary definitions of use of the word as a noun, but we (per BS 7671) are interested in its use as an adjective ("household use") - and many of the dictionaries don't seem to even give a definition of it as an adjective.
No you don't.However, I don't really know why you are arguing (unless 'just foe the sake of arguing') since, as I've said, I essentially agree with you.
Such a view could only be formed by people who don't know that "household" has a specific meaning, it is defined in dictionaries, it is defined in law, and it is not synonymous with "domestic". Anyone who says it is doesn't know what they are talking about.Given the unsatisfactory situation of a regulation which is not adequately clear/explicit, I think all one can do is to go with everyday/common use of language (which very probably corresponds to the spirit of what the authors of BS 7671 actually meant to write) - and, in that sense, I think most people would be fairly agreed on what is meant by 'household use' (which they probably regard as essentially the same as 'domestic use').
If the regulations say "household" then they are talking about who uses it, not how or why.The 'safety consideration' underlying the reg is obvious enough, and I think one has to assume that it is meant to relate to use of a socket by 'ordinary people' living in the building for 'the usual' purposes in such an environment (whether one calls it 'household use' or 'domestic use').
One situation where I would probably disagree with you when part of a building used as a dwelling is clearly also been using for 'commercial' (maybe even 'industrial') purposes. In that situation, I am not at all sure that I would regard use of sockets in that part of the building (in association with the commercial/industrial equipment) as being "household use", even if the individual doing the 'using' was part of the (per dictionary definition) household that used some of the building as a dwelling.
other than perhaps in the (very unusual) situation of which a building which is only partially 'a dwelling', in what sense do you believe that I disagree with you?No you don't.
As I said, in terms of common/everyday use of language, there is little, if any, difference between the terms "household use" and "domestic use". Indeed, even though no definitions are given, there are places in BS7671 where it is implied that the words "domestic" and "household" are being used interchangeably, such as:Maybe the people who wrote the regs did mean "domestic" and not "household", but they didn't write that and we can't read their minds
Maybe this issue arises from the fact that different people write different bits of BS 7671, using slightly different language, without taking enough notice of what language others have used? The word "domestic" is used very widely throughout BS 7671 (to distinguish from commercial and/or industrial) but in other places (where it would seem that the 'intent' is probably the same) the word(s) used are "household or similar",411.3.4 ,,,, Within domestic (household) premises,....
421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises,....
On the fundamental issue of what "household" means.other than perhaps in the (very unusual) situation of which a building which is only partially 'a dwelling', in what sense do you believe that I disagree with you?
There are many such examples in many fields. They are all to be resisted. For example I'd much rather a doctor treated me for what I actually had rather than what people who don't know what they are talking about say I have.As I said, in terms of common/everyday use of language, there is little, if any, difference between the terms "household use" and "domestic use".
That might prove that even the BSI has people in it who don't know what they are talking about.Indeed, even though no definitions are given, there are places in BS7671 where it is implied that the words "domestic" and "household" are being used interchangeably, such as:
411.3.4 ,,,, Within domestic (household) premises,....
421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises,....
No, it arises out of ignorance and a lack of interest in getting things right.Maybe this issue arises from the fact that different people write different bits of BS 7671, using slightly different language, without taking enough notice of what language others have used?
Maybe that is the case. But no amount of erroneous conflations will change the wording of an Act of Parliament, for example.The word "domestic" is used very widely throughout BS 7671 (to distinguish from commercial and/or industrial) but in other places (where it would seem that the 'intent' is probably the same) the word(s) used are "household or similar",
Well, the maximum allowable Zs on a circuit protected by a type C breaker is half that which is allowable on a type B.Also, would there be any issues replacing the 40A type B MCD with a type D MCD (potentially a 32A one)?
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