32amp Commando, cable size?

[SUNRAY]

Thanks for such an in depth answer, wasn't expecting that

Question: if I hadn't mentioned EV would it have been different?

Not to me. However there are differences between outdoor socket and a car charging requirements.

 

[flameport]

commando socket

Not appropriate for use in domestic premises as they have no shutters.

I can plug a car into a normal three pin socket with no extra conditions

That isn't a new circuit, and charging that way is intended for occasional use where there is no other option available.
13A outlets were not designed or intended to be used with high loads for hours at a time, and they are likely to overheat if used like that.
The better charge leads have a thermal sensor in the plug to avoid that.
If people plug them into extension leads, that protection is useless. Some don't have any thermal protection at all.
The results look like this:

The question was really simple.
Is a 6mm SWA cable suitable for a run of 20m to a 32amp Commando....

It could be, but a more usual option would be a cable directly to a permanently installed EVSE rather than via a plug and socket arrangement.
While most EVSEs are 32A, supplying them from a 32A protective device is not necessarily the best option, or the one recommended by the manufacturer.

In most installations an additional communications cable will be required to allow load monitoring of the electrical installation and connection to the Internet. This is required by law - not an optional requirement that can be ignored.
All EVSE installations must be notified to the DNO, and in some cases they can't be installed until upgrades are made to the local network, or their maximum current must be set to a lower value.

and let the spark do the connections etc.

The problem with that statement is that in most cases, there is no electrician.
By the time the cable and the rest of it has been installed, the same persons connect the wires to see if it works, and then it remains like that for ever.
Even if the electrician exists, expecting some random electrician to turn up and connect some cables or other items they didn't install and have no prior knowledge of isn't particularly likely to end well.

 

[robinbanks]

I can plug a car into a normal three pin socket with no extra conditions, so what's the difference in this?

Because the law says there's a gulf between plugging in an appliance rated not to exceed the capacity of a compliant existing circuit, and installing your own brand new circuit to feed a fixed appliance at nearly three times the current rating?

Have you checked how fast your car needs to charge to meet your transport needs?

 

[peterc2609]

Not appropriate for use in domestic premises as they have no shutters.


That isn't a new circuit, and charging that way is intended for occasional use where there is no other option available.
13A outlets were not designed or intended to be used with high loads for hours at a time, and they are likely to overheat if used like that.
The better charge leads have a thermal sensor in the plug to avoid that.
If people plug them into extension leads, that protection is useless. Some don't have any thermal protection at all.
The results look like this:
View attachment 297502View attachment 297503



It could be, but a more usual option would be a cable directly to a permanently installed EVSE rather than via a plug and socket arrangement.
While most EVSEs are 32A, supplying them from a 32A protective device is not necessarily the best option, or the one recommended by the manufacturer.

In most installations an additional communications cable will be required to allow load monitoring of the electrical installation and connection to the Internet. This is required by law - not an optional requirement that can be ignored.
All EVSE installations must be notified to the DNO, and in some cases they can't be installed until upgrades are made to the local network, or their maximum current must be set to a lower value.


The problem with that statement is that in most cases, there is no electrician.
By the time the cable and the rest of it has been installed, the same persons connect the wires to see if it works, and then it remains like that for ever.
Even if the electrician exists, expecting some random electrician to turn up and connect some cables or other items they didn't install and have no prior knowledge of isn't particularly likely to end well.

So the official Tesla charger doesn't have any communications requirements, it's just a dumb charger. Basically not much different from a commando socket, just considerably more expensive!

Ps there is an electrician, I was just trying to get a headstart and buy the 'bits' that are needed.

 

[SUNRAY]

Ps there is an electrician, I was just trying to get a headstart and buy the 'bits' that are needed.

In which case please please contact him/her/them. The perfect information and design will be forthcoming as well as the confirmation they are happy to allow/employ you to do some of the work.
There is also a decnt chance they can source the materials at a trade price ad cheaper than a DIYer.

Personally I hate doing 2nd fix for a DIY installation, it often takes longer to put it right than do the installation.

 

[flameport]

So the official Tesla charger doesn't have any communications requirements, it's just a dumb charger.

Gen 1 and 2 were. They cannot be sold in the UK now.

Gen 3 is connected to WiFi when commissioned. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/installation-manuals-wall-connector#commissioning
and does comply with the legislation as confirmed here.

 

[peterc2609]

Gen 1 and 2 were. They cannot be sold in the UK now.

Gen 3 is connected to WiFi when commissioned. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/installation-manuals-wall-connector#commissioning
and does comply with the legislation as confirmed here.

So just to clarify, an EV charger legally needs to be 'smart' and connect to an app.

However, charging an EV from a 3 pin plug or commando socket isn't illegal and can legally be used instead of a smart EV charger.

That's right isn't it? So regardless of people's opinions, if I get a commando installed properly, then I'm good to go...

 

[conny]

Why bother coming on to ask a very serious question, only to ignore the professional advice you have been given?

You bleated on about this being a DIY site. Yes, it is. For things that can legally be done as DIY.

However, despite being told by some on here, who are actually professional electricians, that your project is NOT a DIY project because of current regulations, you persist in trying to re-word your question in such a manner to get the answer you want to hear.

Take the advice thats been given. Consult/employ an electrician who is qualified to carry out this work safely and correctly.
You will be doing yourself, and your family, a great service by not putting their lives and home at risk due to your inexperience and foolhardiness.

 

[peterc2609]

Why bother coming on to ask a very serious question, only to ignore the professional advice you have been given?

You bleated on about this being a DIY site. Yes, it is. For things that can legally be done as DIY.

However, despite being told by some on here, who are actually professional electricians, that your project is NOT a DIY project because of current regulations, you persist in trying to re-word your question in such a manner to get the answer you want to hear.

Take the advice thats been given. Consult/employ an electrician who is qualified to carry out this work safely and correctly.
You will be doing yourself, and your family, a great service by not putting their lives and home at risk due to your inexperience and foolhardiness.

Sorry, what part is this related to?

The original question was around the size of a cable, the people on here just decided to make assumptions and take it off course.

There is an electrician. I've never not stated this.

I was trying to get a head start on ordering stuff.

If I wanted to install it myself, the whole of an electricians knowledge is available on the internet, videos, guides and the full regulations... I haven't got time to read or watch that, I'd rather just pay someone.

I came on asking for advice on the size of a cable. I did get that answered by some helpful folk, the rest just decided to assume that I was telling lies, was going to do all this myself illegally and put my house and family at risk...

There was a statement about EV chargers and the legality surrounding them. My last post was asking for clarification on that - I think I'm right.

So I do thank you for your concern, but I don't appreciate the assumptions that you lot make to people who are just either trying to learn or get answers to non-difficult questions.

I work in an industry where competence is key, qualifications don't count for a lot ... Which is what usually confuses me about electrics, it's all about certificates rather than competency. Things are always out of date, the same as my industry... So competence, knowledge and proven experience are more valuable than a piece of paper (in my industry).

 

[Adam_151]

I came on asking for advice on the size of a cable. I did get that answered by some helpful folk, the rest just decided to assume that I was telling lies, was going to do all this myself illegally and put my house and family at risk...
[/QUOTE]

The problem is that cable size is an integral part of the design and you appear be taking the view that its trivial and there is very simple inference between a couple of crieria and the cable size:

I asked a simple question, no 'electrics' involved, and anything that needs a spark will have a spark.

I such the same way as one might ask "I have this cable, what size cleat or glands do I need?" where a simple lookup table is sufficient. Now for your job, I could give you an answer that is very likely right (not 100% sure without knowing more details) but is also likely to be over the top in some cases.

You also are expecting someone else to sign to say they have carried out the design, and the install (which doesn't always mean they have done 100%, but they have overseen it), as most schemes do not allow them to sign off others work.

We have all been there, to a job someone has started, made an incorrect assumption about how something should be done and ended up with something that needs straightening out before it can be finished.

I'm afraid it was that that got people's back up

I work in an industry where competence is key, qualifications don't count for a lot ... Which is what usually confuses me about electrics, it's all about certificates rather than competency. Things are always out of date, the same as my industry... So competence, knowledge and proven experience are more valuable than a piece of paper (in my industry).

What makes you assume the same is not true of our industry?, of course we have the odd issue with arcane requirements from the likes of the JIB over someone not quite having the right pieces of paper, but generally these can get straightened out with patience and the same over riding principles apply. What industry are you from BTW?

 

[SUNRAY]

Sorry, what part is this related to?

The original question was around the size of a cable, the people on here just decided to make assumptions and take it off course.

There is an electrician. I've never not stated this.

I was trying to get a head start on ordering stuff.

If I wanted to install it myself, the whole of an electricians knowledge is available on the internet, videos, guides and the full regulations... I haven't got time to read or watch that, I'd rather just pay someone.

I came on asking for advice on the size of a cable. I did get that answered by some helpful folk, the rest just decided to assume that I was telling lies, was going to do all this myself illegally and put my house and family at risk...

There was a statement about EV chargers and the legality surrounding them. My last post was asking for clarification on that - I think I'm right.

So I do thank you for your concern, but I don't appreciate the assumptions that you lot make to people who are just either trying to learn or get answers to non-difficult questions.

I work in an industry where competence is key, qualifications don't count for a lot ... Which is what usually confuses me about electrics, it's all about certificates rather than competency. Things are always out of date, the same as my industry... So competence, knowledge and proven experience are more valuable than a piece of paper (in my industry).

I'm sorry to inform you that all you are doing is digging a much bigger hole for yourself. As has been mentioned some cable sizes may be perfectly acceptable but have you given all of the information required to make that calculation? Your electrician will be able to survey correctly and make those calculations, he/she will be able to advise a route acceptable to him/her etc.
You have been given the correct advice in the very first reply to your question, there are no if or buts in this matter.

99.99% of my work is based on competency for which I have no qualifications, other than common sense, H&S, first aid at work etc. oh and let's not forget insurance for which I had to convince them of my competency.

 

[ericmark]

I have tried to answer your questions, so have others, but the basic questions have not been answered, so can't really answer.

I am not worried about the legal bit, just safety. You are correct the dangers are still there with a 13 amp socket supply. We are seeing some clearly dangerous practices. Some nothing to do with supply type, and being frank it has been happening for years to recharge even petrol and diesel car starting batteries.

We have had EV's for years, but the early EV's the charger was static, not built into the vehicle, and that is still the case with E-bikes, which are still electric vehicles, as are fork lifts, and milk floats, often with a voltage of 48 volt, under the voltage which is considered low voltage, they are extra low voltage. But law says "“electric vehicle” means a vehicle that is capable of being propelled by electrical power derived from a storage battery;" but it does state car or van and dates.

It does seem the chargers today can only recharge vehicles for 15 hours per day, being not allowed to be used during peak hours, but it seems very vague, and the charge KWh has to be recorded, it seems the government is setting up to put tax on the electric used to charge cars, I was going to quote the Citroen Ami, but is seems technically that is not a car, it's a quad, and use a continental plug with adaptor, I do like the idea, although not sure what other road users would feel stuck behind a quad with a 28 MPH max speed.

 

[robinbanks]

If I wanted to install it myself, the whole of an electricians knowledge is available on the internet,

Ok, but would you watch a couple of YouTube videos and read some web pages before performing open heart surgery on your child? The whole of a surgeon's knowledge (and anaesthetists knowledge, and...) is available too..

I think there's quite a difference between "knowing the path, and walking the path" and you've got to remember that you're just one of a steady stream of people arriving in the electrical section who know roughly which end of a screwdriver is which and expect a bit of advice to help them save five grand on a rewire. If you start to quack like you're one of those ducks then that's the way the assumption goes. "I'm just asking what sort of cable so I can buy it for my electrician" does make me wonder what sort of electrician is certified to fit cable but incapable of purchasing it

 

[SUNRAY]

If I wanted to install it myself, the whole of an electricians knowledge is available on the internet, videos, guides and the full regulations... I haven't got time to read or watch that, I'd rather just pay someone.

If you are referring to youtube... think again!!!!

Much of the procrastinating on there by the young boys s trying to earn more out of the advertising than their day job are giving very very dubious advice.

I have been out to a rental property following an EICR by one of them and 99% of the errors simply didn't exist and the quote for full rewire of the garden lighting was a fantastic work of fiction which bore no resembalance to the actual installation.

Viewer beware.

 

[Why Not Indeed]

It does seem the chargers today can only recharge vehicles for 15 hours per day, being not allowed to be used during peak hours, but it seems very vague,

It has to default to that, has to prompt you to accept or change it, and has to allow you to change it subsequently. That is definitely not the same as "can only recharge vehicles for 15 hours per day". I assume the intent is if that enough people don't bother overriding the defaults, then peak demand on the grid will be lowered. With a random delay introduced so that thousands of cars don't all start drawing 32A at 2300!

and the charge KWh has to be recorded, it seems the government is setting up to put tax on the electric used to charge cars,

That's one overly-paranoid interpretation of the regulations. My interpretation of it is that the regulations prescribe a minimum level of functionality, which includes keeping a year's worth of charging data, and the ability to manage the charger [it's a switch, really] across a network.