Advice appreciated regarding job price rate

[^woody^]

No, you need to factor in the skills required to do the job.
An artist will take 1 day to do a painting and sell it for £1000.
Carving is the same, costs more because you need skills, not just labour.

No im not confused. That's how contracts are managed.

I suspect that you are confusing the rate one trade may charge compared to another trade. But in the trade of vanity units, that's the same trade and no way should a day rate be more just because work is more complex, that's a nonsense. The extra complexity is paid for by it taking more time, more days not more day rate.

 

[johnny2007]

No im not confused. That's how contracts are managed.

I suspect that you are confusing the rate one trade may charge compared to another trade. But in the trade of vanity units, that's the same trade and no way should a day rate be more just because work is more complex, that's a nonsense. The extra complexity is paid for by it taking more time, more days not more day rate.

I build furniture and that's what I do.
Call it another trade, but carving costs more than cutting and joining.

 

[^woody^]

I build furniture and that's what I do.
Call it another trade, but carving costs more than cutting and joining.

Of course it costs more, but you don't charge more per day, you just charge more days because of the carving.

If I've got you tendering and then working under a typical JCT construction contract for instance, you would have specified a single rate for selected trades, so for the vanity unit trade you would have told me that you will charge £120 per day. Then if I produce a carved vanity unit you don't say "I want more money per day for fitting that", because the contract does not allow it. But what you might say is that the carved unit will take you one day more than the cut unit, and the contract will allow that.

 

[just pumps]

If it's a job done in the workshop, no moving tools, no travelling, no loading and unloading the van, etc, just open the door and go, yes, £120 is fair.

Very few trades operate from a workshop so that is kind of cheating.

 

[johnny2007]

Of course it costs more, but you don't charge more per day, you just charge more days because of the carving.

If I've got you tendering and then working under a typical JCT construction contract for instance, you would have specified a single rate for selected trades, so for the vanity unit trade you would have told me that you will charge £120 per day. Then if I produce a carved vanity unit you don't say "I want more money per day for fitting that", because the contract does not allow it. But what you might say is that the carved unit will take you one day more than the cut unit, and the contract will allow that.

Sorry mate, but you're wrong.
If you ask me to build a standard vanity unit it will take 1 day and £120 labour.
If you asked me a carved vanity unit it will take 2 days and £400 labour.
If you don't like it, carve it yourself.
Ah sorry, you can't carve wood?
Tough, go to ikea then.
You can't push your prices on me, I'm an independent trader, not a customer's slave.

 

[johnny2007]

Very few trades operate from a workshop so that is kind of cheating.

How is it cheating?
I charge less for jobs done in workshop rather than 20 miles away.
Where's the cheating?

 

[teaboyjim]

Both types of scenario make sense

 

[JackK]

The building industry leaves a lot to be desired - A day rate is meant to be a rate to do work that the customer specifies and is fixed

I do love builders saying we do only price work as it makes it so opaque - And dont tell me that price work works well because every time a job takes longer the builder will say there is a problem which he could not have forseen and means he needs more.

Whatever happened to people doing what the rest of the world does - Solicitors charge by hour, tesco per house and employees get a fixed salary if they are shovelling bricks or painting

What is the big secret for builders to say it will cost X per day

 

[johnny2007]

The building industry leaves a lot to be desired - A day rate is meant to be a rate to do work that the customer specifies and is fixed

I do love builders saying we do only price work as it makes it so opaque - And dont tell me that price work works well because every time a job takes longer the builder will say there is a problem which he could not have forseen and means he needs more.

Whatever happened to people doing what the rest of the world does - Solicitors charge by hour, tesco per house and employees get a fixed salary if they are shovelling bricks or painting

What is the big secret for builders to say it will cost X per day

In my experience lets think of a project will cost £5k with £2k for material and £3k labour.
If you just tell the customer it will cost £5k all in, they're happier to accept than when you say it will take 2 people 6 days at £250/day.
The brain immediately thinks that you pocket £250 clean in your pocket.
I've never liked quoting work per day, in fact, I don't think I ever did so.

 

[Old Salt]

As a customer a day rate is acceptable to me provided I know how many days are also specified and agreed.

I used to provide services at a day rate including expenses, travel, hotel, etc. I also told them how many days would be required. If it took more I swallowed the cost, if it took less they dipped in. I got a lot of repeat business because I stood by my quotes.

 

[JackK]

In my experience lets think of a project will cost £5k with £2k for material and £3k labour.
If you just tell the customer it will cost £5k all in, they're happier to accept than when you say it will take 2 people 6 days at £250/day.
The brain immediately thinks that you pocket £250 clean in your pocket.
I've never liked quoting work per day, in fact, I don't think I ever did so.

And wont you get 250 a day clean in your example? You will

Always hear builders excuse they have to run a van, tools, insurance, tea bags and so on - On the other hand every other job like IT, accountancy, law firms do the same and manage to publish their rates (including dentists)!

 

[noseall]

And wont you get 250 a day clean in your example? You will

Always hear builders excuse they have to run a van, tools, insurance, tea bags and so on - On the other hand every other job like IT, accountancy, law firms do the same and manage to publish their rates (including dentists)!

Day rate is crap for a busy small builder like me. Great for those that run gangs and want to tread water though.

The skill (for the customer) is negotiating the details. Weather, lack of materials on site, un-foreseen stuff. I was once asked if I'd consider doing an 8 month project on day rate (over the winter) and I told him a firm no thankyou. He'd already had a price off me.

 

[JackK]

Day rate is crap for a busy small builder like me. Great for those that run gangs and want to tread water though.

The skill (for the customer) is negotiating the details. Weather, lack of materials on site, un-foreseen stuff. I was once asked if I'd consider doing an 8 month project on day rate (over the winter) and I told him a firm no thankyou. He'd already had a price off me.

It’s crap for you as a builder but honest for the buyer.

You don’t have the courage to say to people I charge 400 a day so instead when you see a job that will take ten days you price it at 4K

If you do the job and it takes longer then your ten day estimate you go cap in hand back to the client to say unforeseen plumbing electric problems that no one could have priced. I need another £1,200. Knowing it will take a further three days.

That’s the way it goes. Great for builder to hide between price job and non disclosure
Of day rate

 

[johnny2007]

And wont you get 250 a day clean in your example? You will

Always hear builders excuse they have to run a van, tools, insurance, tea bags and so on - On the other hand every other job like IT, accountancy, law firms do the same and manage to publish their rates (including dentists)!

How would you get £250 clean in your pocket?
40% goes in tax for us paying taxes.
Then there's the diesel, tools, vehicle maintenance, consumables, clothes, shoes, insurance, accountants, etc.
In the end you'll end up with £120 in your pocket, clean.
The customer doesn't see it that way, that's why I always priced the complete job, not my hours.
Also, if you're charging by hour or day, every time the customer sees you having a break, they'll be moaning about it.
I always offered a fixed comprehensive quote and told them roughly how long it should take.
In my mind I would work out how long and then add days accordingly to the job.
For example, a straight forward job of fitting doors and frames with old ones already removed, would give me a very accurate idea of the hours needed, so on a 10 doors job I would add only one day.
For a full kitchen extension, i would add 1 week, if not 2.
Then if I finished earlier, even better.
Trouble starts when you tell the customer it will take 4 weeks and instead it goes into 6 weeks.
Customer won't be happy to pay 2 weeks extra wages.
Instead, with a comprehensive quote, they've agreed the price and they don't mind if it takes longer than expected, especially if you tell them why it's taken longer.

 

[JackK]

How would you get £250 clean in your pocket?
40% goes in tax for us paying taxes.
Then there's the diesel, tools, vehicle maintenance, consumables, clothes, shoes, insurance, accountants, etc.
In the end you'll end up with £120 in your pocket, clean.
The customer doesn't see it that way, that's why I always priced the complete job, not my hours.
Also, if you're charging by hour or day, every time the customer sees you having a break, they'll be moaning about it.
I always offered a fixed comprehensive quote and told them roughly how long it should take.
In my mind I would work out how long and then add days accordingly to the job.
For example, a straight forward job of fitting doors and frames with old ones already removed, would give me a very accurate idea of the hours needed, so on a 10 doors job I would add only one day.
For a full kitchen extension, i would add 1 week, if not 2.
Then if I finished earlier, even better.
Trouble starts when you tell the customer it will take 4 weeks and instead it goes into 6 weeks.
Customer won't be happy to pay 2 weeks extra wages.
Instead, with a comprehensive quote, they've agreed the price and they don't mind if it takes longer than expected, especially if you tell them why it's taken longer.

Give me a break. Most tradesman want cash in hand for the price or they say you need to add 20% for vat (even though they get a tax saving and in some cases without a vat number!)

Don’t even get me started on tradesmen adding a 20% margin on material or lazy plumbers expecting £400 for a 9-3 day and expecting to take the scrap metal as a bonus

All other industries need to pay for uniform and travel (by train , taxi or chauffeur)

No wonder ths industry attracts cowboys who want to make a quick buck some of whom have just picked up a paint brush but describe themselves as skilled multi talented superstars !

£100 for changing a kitchen tap is a 30 minute job !