Albanians and crime a real problem.

Notch7 said:
You dont want an open honest discussion all you want is to shut down any useful discussion because you are driven by some desire to take the moral high ground to make yourself look good, not for any desire to find any solution.
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You debase my motivation to that similar to your own. I am not motivated by a desire to point score, or win an argument. I am motivated by what I see as morally corrupt behaviour demonising immigrants for being immigrants, and for no other reason.
Man has migrated ever since he walked the earth. Man will continue to migrate for so long as he is able to walk. All animals do so. It is a survival instinct.
To demonise people for doing so is devisive, hate-filled, and short-sighted.
A better solution is to look for the reasons why man wants to migrate and mitigate those reasons. That is the cooperative, long-term, morally justified action.

Now to address your "moral high ground" basis for your accusation:
Using a well-worn but hollow and inappropriate excuse for an argument, you are
a) exploiting a strawman argument,
b) recognising that demonising immigrants for being immigrants is morally corrupt, and
c) illustrating the weakness or absence of your argument.
It is a strawman argument for the reasons given above, i.e, my motivation is because it is morally corrupt to demonise immigrants, not for some childish desire to score point or to "win" an argument, or because some grudge is being carried.
It recognises the morally corrupt basis of demonising immigrants, because it recognises that to oppose such behaviour is morally justified.
It illustrates the weakness of your own reasoning due to the resorting to the use of well-worn, but hollow and inappropriate arguments.
 
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IWalkLikeHimaMartian said:
You debase my motivation to that similar to your own. I am not motivated by a desire to point score, or win an argument. I am motivated by what I see as morally corrupt behaviour demonising immigrants for being immigrants, and for no other reason.
Man has migrated ever since he walked the earth. Man will continue to migrate for so long as he is able to walk. All animals do so. It is a survival instinct.
To demonise people for doing so is devisive, hate-filled, and short-sighted.
A better solution is to look for the reasons why man wants to migrate and mitigate those reasons. That is the cooperative, long-term, morally justified action.
Click to expand...
Man has also a hardwired inbuilt way of mistrusting strangers, people and situations different to our own.. It also is a survival instinct. It can be overcome, but this is why talking is the most important thing we have to change things.
 
please do not falsify quotes
 
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sodthisforfun said:
Man has also a hardwired inbuilt way of mistrusting strangers, people and situations different to our own.. It also is a survival instinct. It can be overcome, but this is why talking is the most important thing we have to change things.
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I do not disagree.
We do have the ability to make choices and overcome our inbuilt, hard-wired instincts. We can choose to close down those destructive, anti-social, divisive instincts, while allowing the productive, educative, progressive instincts to continue.
I would add that hate-filled, foreigner-hating, immigrant-demonising propaganda is not a constructive approach, is morally corrupt and is driven by a short-sighted and uneducated "blame" culture.
 
IWalkLikeHimaMartian said:
I am not motivated by a desire to point score, or win an argument.
Click to expand...

that is blatantly untrue.

You are clearly motivated by a desire to point score.

And when you dont get your own way, you rapidly descend into insults and name calling.

It is no strawman argument, you dont adopt the moral high ground for altruistic reasons.

here's the proof: If you really cared for fellow man, you would not resort to unpleasant insults all the time, which totally undermines the case you make for being some kind of moral crusader.
 
sodthisforfun said:
Man has also a hardwired inbuilt way of mistrusting strangers, people and situations different to our own.. It also is a survival instinct. It can be overcome, but this is why talking is the most important thing we have to change things.
Click to expand...
Sadly though, those with vested interests (and often those with a power of veto in various media outlets/debating forums etc) frequently prevent that 'talking' taking place because it goes against their own views!

'Survival instincts' it appears breeds prejudice...

Or is it the other way around?
 
Notch7 said:
that is blatantly untrue.

You are clearly motivated by a desire to point score.

And when you dont get your own way, you rapidly descend into insults and name calling.

It is no strawman argument, you dont adopt the moral high ground for altruistic reasons.

here's the proof: If you really cared for fellow man, you would not resort to unpleasant insults all the time, which totally undermines the case you make for being some kind of moral crusader.
Click to expand...
If you wish to turn the thread into a rant against me, so be it. It is not the point of the thread, but it may illustrate your attitude.

I am not trying to be some kind of moral crusader. I am just putting my opinion forward because I happen to believe it is the right opinion, the right solution, the morally justified solution, the most humane, considerate, cooperative, and eventually the most successful.
The demonising of immigrants, for being immigrants and no other reason, is morally corrupt, divisive, based on misunderstanding and is ill-conceived. It is inevitably the resort of the uneducated, misguided and hate-filled individuals. It fails miserably to address the issue, and leads to enmity.
But you appear to support it. Otherwise why are you objecting to my reasoning?

Your whole argument is based on your misunderstanding of my motivation, so it is no wonder you come to the wrong conclusion.
But you are welcome to your opinion and there is little point in me trying to persuade you otherwise.

You insult me and I will insult you, that is how it works.
If you do not insult me, I will not respond likewise. (remember, recently, practically every post you made contained insults?)
If you do not want to be insulted, do not use insults against others.
Simples.
 
ellal said:
'Survival instincts' it appears breeds prejudice...

Or is it the other way around?
Click to expand...
Prejudice is a taught ideology. Children learn it from their peers and parents.
Some have the intelligence to realise the stupidity of it, others do not, and continue that prejudice, teaching their children the same prejudice.
 
IWalkLikeHimaMartian said:
Prejudice is a taught ideology. Children learn it from their peers and parents.
Some have the intelligence to realise the stupidity of it, others do not, and continue that prejudice, teaching their children the same prejudice.
Click to expand...
A bit like voting tendencies!

But how much does the 'power of veto' in certain hands come in to play?

And a lack of education (deliberate or not) means that there are plenty out there who don't have the access to the information/facilities to use their intelligence!
 
IWalkLikeHimaMartian said:
You debase my motivation to that similar to your own. I am not motivated by a desire to point score, or win an argument. I am motivated by what I see as morally corrupt behaviour demonising immigrants for being immigrants, and for no other reason.
Click to expand...

So you approve of the British empire historically.???
 
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