Anyone interested in old colour cable?
- Thread starter wolves999wolves
- Start date
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If both are available, and there is nothing to choose between them except that one is safer than the other then it is unreasonable to choose the one which is less safe.
I think you are one of the ones unable to see the absurdity in the claim that choosing for no reason whatsoever to make an installation more dangerous to the point that you have to warn people about the danger you have created constitutes reasonable provision for safety.
It is not my imagination, and it's not "my rules".
The fact that you cannot see that unreasonably choosing a more dangerous solution cannot be considered a reasonable act does not make me wrong.
If I was going to add a spur to a circuit wired in the old colours and I only had new colours cable available to me, then I imagine it would be reasonable to use that cable. The difference in colours could cause confusion to someone working on the circuit in future, but I am unable to avoid that. I'd probably stick a label on the CU.
If I was going to add a spur to a circuit wired in the old colours and I had both old and new colours cable to hand, then I imagine it would be reasonable to use the old colours cable on the grounds that it would cause less confusion for anyone working on the circuit in future, than if I used the new colour cable. Under these circumstances, it would be perverse and unreasonable to use the new colours, because to do so would introduce a potential for future confusion that I could easily have avoided.
Where it gets more complicated is in a situation where I am able to obtain cable in the old colours but it is more expensive, or requires some effort on my part to get it. In this case, I imagine 'reasonable' is a judgement call. What I believe to be a reasonable course of action to take might not be considered so by someone else. But under these specific circumstances the point isn't the decision, but that the decision was arrived at by a process of reasoning. Tossing a coin to decide whether or not to spend the extra money to buy matching coloured cable would not be a reasonable course of action. Thinking about it, weighing things up, and deciding would be appropriate, whatever the final decision actually was, would be a reasonable approach to take.
Does that sound right?
If I was going to add a spur to a circuit wired in the old colours and I had both old and new colours cable to hand, then I imagine it would be reasonable to use the old colours cable on the grounds that it would cause less confusion for anyone working on the circuit in future, than if I used the new colour cable. Under these circumstances, it would be perverse and unreasonable to use the new colours, because to do so would introduce a potential for future confusion that I could easily have avoided.
Where it gets more complicated is in a situation where I am able to obtain cable in the old colours but it is more expensive, or requires some effort on my part to get it. In this case, I imagine 'reasonable' is a judgement call. What I believe to be a reasonable course of action to take might not be considered so by someone else. But under these specific circumstances the point isn't the decision, but that the decision was arrived at by a process of reasoning. Tossing a coin to decide whether or not to spend the extra money to buy matching coloured cable would not be a reasonable course of action. Thinking about it, weighing things up, and deciding would be appropriate, whatever the final decision actually was, would be a reasonable approach to take.
Does that sound right?
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It is not reasonable to use old colours on an old colour system if you have to go out of your way to obtain the cable. Or pay a small fortune for it.
They don't make old colours now so no one can possibly expect you to install old colours.
It may have been a good idea to carry on manufacturing old colours to use on old installations; but they didn't, so we can't.
Some, larger, jobs could be wired in the old colours, but there could be an issue with the older wiring due to be replaced soon or relatively soon, so it may make very good sense to use harmonised.
Are there any issues with using totally perfect but 7+ year old cables on jobs?
It was ridiculous in the first place to change the wiring colours for fixed wiring in the UK. Why have buildings with a mixture of different wiring colours? It looks and is a poor design, with various possible dangers, particularly with 3 phase.
It is also ridiculous that people choose different colours to use as neutral in 3 core cables and similar.
Nothing 'harmonised' about that.
They don't make old colours now so no one can possibly expect you to install old colours.
It may have been a good idea to carry on manufacturing old colours to use on old installations; but they didn't, so we can't.
Some, larger, jobs could be wired in the old colours, but there could be an issue with the older wiring due to be replaced soon or relatively soon, so it may make very good sense to use harmonised.
Are there any issues with using totally perfect but 7+ year old cables on jobs?
It was ridiculous in the first place to change the wiring colours for fixed wiring in the UK. Why have buildings with a mixture of different wiring colours? It looks and is a poor design, with various possible dangers, particularly with 3 phase.
It is also ridiculous that people choose different colours to use as neutral in 3 core cables and similar.
Nothing 'harmonised' about that.
When 3-core was R/Y/B, which colour(s) did people use for N?
And why?
And why?
in his head, the fun never stops...
H
holmslaw
..
P
Paul_C
We're still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that the published advice regarding the Secretary of State's view on the matter coincides with yours.
I think most of us on this forum agree with that. Adopting "harmonized" coding was a ridiculous exercise in the first place, and serves no useful purpose. What does it matter that the British system is/was different from Continental Europe? Homes don't just get up and move from one country to another (well, a mobile home could, but that's a small number), and there are many other variations in national practices anyway.
That line of questioning does pose another question for BAS though.
If somebody has both red/black and brown/blue to hand to extend an older installation, and chooses to use the brown/blue but to sleeve the terminations red & black, do you still consider that to be illegal?
In fact we could go a stage further. What if no old red/black cable is available, so you have to use brown/blue, which you've stated is acceptable and legal in your opinion. But you have some suitable red & black sleeving. Do you think it would be illegal to install that brown/blue cable without applying the red & black sleeving?
H
holmslaw
..
Sorry to jump on the band wagon here.
Bathroom in one room moving it to another, the run of 10mm black and red cable runs to the old bathroom, new bathroom nearer the fuse box. So was going to route the old cable to the new shower switch and cut the excess.
So what you’re saying is that I’ll have to completely take out the old cable and replace with new blue and brown which means taking up a whole load of flooring just to meet regs? What a faff and waste of money.
Yes the 45 amp switch will have old running in and new running out.
Bathroom in one room moving it to another, the run of 10mm black and red cable runs to the old bathroom, new bathroom nearer the fuse box. So was going to route the old cable to the new shower switch and cut the excess.
So what you’re saying is that I’ll have to completely take out the old cable and replace with new blue and brown which means taking up a whole load of flooring just to meet regs? What a faff and waste of money.
Yes the 45 amp switch will have old running in and new running out.
Personally I used to use (when for example wiring a circuit in SWA) :
Red for live - well that matches
Yellow for earth - it half matches the green/yellow earth
Blue for neutral - partly because that's what's left, partly because it's familiar as neutral in harmonised flexes.
Of course, appropriate sleeving should be used.
On the other hand, last time I used flat triple+earth, all three were 'live'.
But my suspicious mind wonders what you are trying to prove here - other than mixing colours in an installation isn't any hazard at all.
I don't think the regs require you to rip out and replace the cable. The regs acknowledge that for many years, there will be installation with a mix of colours and it's not reasonable to expect everyone to rewire everything. There's a reasonable argument that this is a modification, not a new circuit - new circuits should be done with brown/blue cable.
But wiring in a bathroom is covered by Part P, so you'll either have to use a Part P registered electrician to do the work, or pay your local building control to inspect and certify it. The latter will probably cost more than getting a pro in. Given that you will most likely be using an electrician, you should discuss the matter with him - he's the one who'll need to sign it off as safe !
BTW - it's far better to start a new thread, your query is somewhat different to the current thread, and many people will have stopped reading on page 1 and won't see your question.
Thank Simon,
yes perhaps should have strated a new topic, apologies.
By the way the other reason is I have 7 odd meters of new b&r 10mm which I was going to use for the run from the shower switch to the shower. But looks like I will have to run b&b. This of course causes confusion as rather run it with old then its old and old! Ah well.
yes perhaps should have strated a new topic, apologies.
By the way the other reason is I have 7 odd meters of new b&r 10mm which I was going to use for the run from the shower switch to the shower. But looks like I will have to run b&b. This of course causes confusion as rather run it with old then its old and old! Ah well.
P
Paul_C
There's no reason you can't use the red/black you have. The point of dispute in this thread hinges around BAS claiming that you are required by law to do that, not me or anyone else arguing that you are not permitted to do it.
Shall we try again? Maybe you'll be able to keep up this time.
When 3-core was R/Y/B, which colour(s) did people use for N?
And why?
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