Atmos or Intergas

[Norcon]

Off. that's the problem with crossings round here. You have to wait a while.

the one in Foxton is a bloody nigthmare if it catches you.


Not that it is ANY of your business.

Now run along there a good chap.

Just read your previous post about the engine being off. Or at least so you say.

Still dangerous what you done. Mown down by a train whilst posting tosh on a diy forum.

 

[Steelmasons]

Still dangerous what you done. Mown down by a train whilst posting tosh on a diy forum.

You gotta laugh at that dan..

 

[Dan Robinson]

Well it would relieve the monotony of reading the bollocks that you and your new butt buddy have been posting for the last few days. .

Why would I sit in traffic for 5+ minutes knowing I am going nowhere with my engine running? AC isn't that vital to my existence.


*edit* over lapped with Steel

 

[newbuildinstaller]

To be honest Tony, you stand need calling for a Ban!
What with your constant advertising, dangerous gas advice and poor plumbing advice, you should suffer the same fate!

woah scathing attack there!!out of nowhere too

 

[Biggles..]

Not really, his only contribution was calling for someone that speaks as much crap as he does to be banned!

 

[SimonH2]

If I owned this site, I would have banned AlexCarp and deleted his posts!

But I do see that a few seem to enjoy interacting with him so perhaps there are some who enjoy his postings!

It does seem that some people seem to enjoy berating anyone for thinking for themselves, and then complain when a thread goes on a bit. Seems that some people (no names, no pack drill) seem to have difficulty accepting that there could be an opinion that differs from their own.

Hey alexcarp maybe you could educate us numbnuts and calculate the mixing temps through that 28mm header? , now we don't want guesswork as you have the flow rates and temp differential @ your disposal.

I've tried calculating mixing temps but I must be doing something wrong as my calculations suggest the header shouldnt have a cold slug between primary flow/return.

As you well know, the conditions will be very, very, very variable. Anywhere between 100% of the primary loop flow one way, to probably some reverse flow at the other extreme. But then, that's the whole point of the "assembly" (I'll avoid using any other description lest it offend some purist who can't accept that sometimes "good enough is good enough".

As I said probably on page 1 or 2, you cannot have 3 pumps thrashing away and no circulation through the header, of course as everything is undersized, the 2 pumps could stall the header and even reverse the flow making the shunt pump pointless

The header is nothing but a glorified by-pass pipe, circulating in the wrong direction and against the shunt pump.

Correct, but then that's all a LLH is really - a glorified bypass pipe. If you have more controlled environment then you might be able to work out some better variables, but for a domestic heating environment than you have a lot of compromises to work around.
If you increase primary flow rate so there is never any reverse flow in the "assembly" at peak demand (typically during start up on the CH) then you'll have a sub optimal setup for all other conditions. Worst case is you get some reverse flow and the CH flow temperature is reduced a bit while the CH loop is "starting up" - just like you get with a conventional system where the flow temp is reduced until the return temp to the boiler has come up a bit and allows the boiler to reach the set flow temp (unless of course, you are one of those who see nothing wrong with installing a grossly oversized boiler and not ranging it down to suit the load).

Personally, I'd rather optimise the system for the situation it'll run at most - which is when the CH is under part load. But if it makes you happy to optimise the system for less than 1% of it's operating time, and make it less optimal for when it's costing the most to run, then that's your choice - pity you professionals inflict such systems on unsuspecting customers.

 

[Dan Robinson]

It has nothing to do with berating someone who has a different perspective.

It is about protecting the unaware from doughnuts like the OP/Alexcrap/any other of his different identities here, who insist that they have reinvented the wheel and that it should have been hexagonal from the start.

 

[AlexCarp]

You are a plumber

yes I know and mighty proud to be one , a good plumber would wipe the floor with a heating engineer.

You are in cloud cuckoo-land.

You do drains.

How observant of you , yes I certainly do.

Stick to drains as boilers and heating systems are beyond you. Plumbing and heating are not the same thing. Different qualifications.

 

[AlexCarp]

Oh, and I can read perfectly well thanks. I have a degree in it.

A degree in reading. Fantastic. Do you have one in colouring as well?

 

[AlexCarp]

duplicate

 

[Dan Robinson]

Pictures please?

 

[AlexCarp]

As I said probably on page 1 or 2, you cannot have 3 pumps thrashing away and no circulation through the header, of course as everything is undersized, the 2 pumps could stall the header and even reverse the flow making the shunt pump pointless

The header is nothing but a glorified by-pass pipe, circulating in the wrong direction and against the shunt pump.

Correct, but then that's all a LLH is really - a glorified bypass pipe. If you have more controlled environment then you might be able to work out some better variables, but for a domestic heating environment then you have a lot of compromises to work around.

If you increase primary flow rate so there is never any reverse flow in the "assembly" at peak demand (typically during start up on the CH) then you'll have a sub optimal setup for all other conditions. Worst case is you get some reverse flow and the CH flow temperature is reduced a bit while the CH loop is "starting up" - just like you get with a conventional system where the flow temp is reduced until the return temp to the boiler has come up a bit and allows the boiler to reach the set flow temp (unless of course, you are one of those who see nothing wrong with installing a grossly oversized boiler and not ranging it down to suit the load).

Personally, I'd rather optimise the system for the situation it'll run at most - which is when the CH is under part load. But if it makes you happy to optimise the system for less than 1% of it's operating time, and make it less optimal for when it's costing the most to run, then that's your choice - pity you professionals inflict such systems on unsuspecting customers.

Simon H2, you got it. This system has:

Variable temperatures - due to weather compensation and the internal controls of the boiler that will lower the flow temperature when the flow and return temperatures become close to each other.

Variable flows - through the header due to the TRVs and the two auto variable speed smart pumps.

Most here, apart from you and one other, can't get their heads around this. They clearly do too much drain work.

The system after start up and warm goes on part load and then operates wonderfully. It ticks over at a low temperature and low flows as the smart pumps wind down pumping slightly. The radiators are nice and "warm", not hot. As I have previously stated, by observation the low-loss header appears to act as a manifold on start up and then a header on part load which as you have pointed out auto optimises. It settles down to work nicely. I did notice on start up, that the first flow tee (downstairs) takes more heat than the second tee (upstairs). But when warmed up this is not a problem. Yesterday I upped the primary shunt pump speed to No. 2 and both flows got pretty equal temperatures from the header. It also operated as you described. I then switched it back to No. 1, as most of the time it will be on part load with the two smart pumps pumping far less than maximum and the shunt pump will be pumping too high - in this situation having the primary shunt pump running too fast is detrimental.

The weather compensator ensures that the flow temperature most of the run time is way under 60C ensuring condensing of the boiler. In most cases it is way under 60C like 45C.

I advise using 35mm pipe to be sure - the cost of the pipe and fittings is about £50 or so from BES. Any left over 35mm pipe can be used for the gas supply from the meter onwards.

I am just reports back that the 28mm low-loss header does work making this an very affordable system for what it delivers.

 

[AlexCarp]

Pictures please?

Do you want to colour them in?

 

[Dan Robinson]

No. I fancy a laugh.

Why so reticent to show this marvel of modern plumbing design that nooooooooo one has possibly thought of before


Come on big boy. Grow a pair

 

[AlexCarp]

Correct, but then that's all a LLH is really - a glorified bypass pipe. If you have more controlled environment then you might be able to work out some better variables, but for a domestic heating environment than you have a lot of compromises to work around.
If you increase primary flow rate so there is never any reverse flow in the "assembly" at peak demand (typically during start up on the CH) then you'll have a sub optimal setup for all other conditions. Worst case is you get some reverse flow and the CH flow temperature is reduced a bit while the CH loop is "starting up" - just like you get with a conventional system where the flow temp is reduced until the return temp to the boiler has come up a bit and allows the boiler to reach the set flow temp (unless of course, you are one of those who see nothing wrong with installing a grossly oversized boiler and not ranging it down to suit the load).

Low-loss headers are supposed to provide a neutral point where all pumped circuits operate independently of each other and without influence to each other. The ultimate low-loss header is a thermal store (the cylinder is a very large pipe) using a plate heat exchanger and pump for the CH, a boiler shunt pump and a pump for the CH circuits. But even with a large header pipe - the massive cylinder - the low-loss header (the cylinder) can be by-passed.

A thermal store cares not about the size of the boiler as long as the flow and return pipes are big enough. A really large boiler can be fitted with no detrimental affects. So, a thermal store is heating up from he boiler, pumping heat into the top of the cylinder. The DHW is called and the DHW pump cuts in. It will take the heat just dumped into the top of the cylinder and pump it through the DHW plate heat exchanger dumping the cooler water at the bottom of the cylinder. This means the flow is from the boiler into the top of the cylinder through the DHW plate heat X, into the bottom of the cylinder and back to the boiler. It by-passes the header (the cylinder). It is not entirely neutral. The DHW pump taking the boilers flow does not affect the performance of the boiler circuit.

The same occurs in a smaller diameter low-loss header - a large pipe.