Backup generator

Your domestic gear is happiest with a nice smooth sine wave, the budget generators don't tend to produce such a thing- my little 3kw inverter gennie won't run the microwave properly without a nice big fat resistive load on as well (fan heater or 500w sunflood does the job).
EDIT If you're on cable TV/broadband, the street boxes require mains power and as far as I know it isn't a dedicated supply
Not only domestic kit and tiny gensets,
A 35KVA genset was provided for a summer event small sound stage.
2 problems:
1) The genset throttled right back with no load.
2) The 3KW amplifiers did a self check and supply check, they'd see the volts and start but the gen didn't throttle-up quick enough and the amps couldn't complete the start-up routine.
We carried a fan heater in our trailer and initially people laughed when I suggested running it on one of the hottest days of the year...

The fibre and cable cabinets on the pavements are simply a fed in the same way as a residential property, currently they have no back-up system.
 
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1) Duel voltage generator sets some times have 55 volt to earth. Connecting neutral to earth outside the generator is a bad move.
2) Generators are often designed for one use, we had some designed to run flood lights, and the voltage regulations was only correct at two current outputs, no AVR.
3) Inverter generators can reduce the revs on low load, and some models are designed to be able to run in tandem.
4) Some generators are designed to tick over with no load, but voltage drops.
5) Some diesels do not like running light load. They carbon up.

When working on the Falklands everything was powered from generators from 1.5 KVA to 1500 kVA and it was some times a problem with the lower output units where motors would not start, shears for example. Also some of the smaller generators clearly not designed for 24/7 use, a belt drive to a Lister LT1 would run for years, but Briggs and Stratton lucky to get one year, but the latter were small and light.

Having a generator thumping away all night is not what one wants, and this has become a problem with caravan sites which have no electric huck-up.

The inverter (UPS) will often grid tie, and automatic take up the load when power fails, but again I remember on the Falklands we installed an UPS which failed more often than the generators. But an UPS supply for phones and internet makes sense.

In Algeria on our main camp generators were synchronised, but else where used like key switches, with only one key, so one switch had to be switched off, key removed, and fitted into another switch and we had strict instructions not to re-energise until 5 minutes had lapsed, this was because of having so many air conditioning units, refrigeration units want the pressure to drop before being restarted.

Although one can get brake before make change over switches, where the generator is used it is good to have a plug in arrangement so if your generator fails you can hire one. So the 16 amp or 32 amp commando type plug and socket is favourite. Using a 32 amp lead
Type216AchargerCommandoCEEplug_b8b39b8e-0726-4635-b092-9c72bc2a3b20_compact.png
for EV charging means you can plug in direct to generator or domestic supply, the worry is where the domestic supply is TN-C-S when we really want some loss of PEN detection, but easy answer is a TT supply.

There is much to consider, and I would say not a DIY job, and one wonders if a simple inverter generator and lead through window to freezer is no a better answer?
0FBBEF60-126D-4537-809F-F9A9928A7E73-small.jpg
These are so portable you can move it around item to item to keep them cool. Yes some messing around, but £500 and job done, no wiring, simply an extension through the cat flap.
 
The problem you may encounter with that is than in some (admittedly rare) fault scenarios, the voltage on the DNO's earth can rise significantly above that of the local "true earth", and if such a situation does arise, there are 2 possible issues. If your earth electrode is already connected, a significant current may pass between the DNO earth and yours, so you would need to ensure that your cable is of sufficient size to deal with that. If, on the other hand, you were to connect your electrode whilst such a fault existed on the DNO network, you could receive a significant shock, and/or arc burn due to the potential difference between their earth and yours. On the flip side, the DNO would be extremely unhappy if a fault on your side somehow raised the voltage on their earth to a point where it could be dangerous to someone working on repairing a cable. Also unlikely, but not impossible.

Earthing can be a tricky one, a good few radio amateurs have experienced unfortunate side effects due to incautious connection of radio transmitter earthing rods to mains earth.
And yet, we were expecting the 18th edition to require a local earth electrode for every new installation - and potentially retrofitted for existing installations.
My feeling, allowing for the inevitable change from "I will be the only person who deals with this and I know what I'm doing" to "any lay person will be hooking up a genny", is that the installation needs a good earth electrode. I'm sure there are many such installations - but the owner moves, or is away and someone else deals with things, or people just forget ...*

Permanently hook all the earths together - so yes, add an earth to the DNO's earth, and sized so that at least your own bonding cables won't melt first. Fit a 2 pole RCBO in the generator input (between power inlet and C/O switch) rated according to the inlet capacity and the earth electrode resistance - effectively make it so that regardless of what anyone plugs in, it'll be safe and protected according to the inlet capacity.
The genny will then be earthed via the permanent earth electrode even if the DNO cable has failed - otherwise, does any "lay" person ever even attempt to earth the genny frame ?
IF the genny is wired with a 55V tap between earth and neutral, then you'll end up with 55V between the installation N and E. Most stuff won't care, but from threads on here, some boilers might not work, and the EV charger will probably lock out. Using an RCBO in the genny inlet will give protection should anyone touch an exposed N or there be a N-E fault.
If the genny does not have any earthed point in it's windings, then it'll end up as an IT supply so a single fault won't trip the installation protection - but the 2 pole RCBO in the genny inlet should take care of it in the event of someone touching a "live" conductor.

OK, I await the usual picking of holes :rolleyes:

* Many years ago, long before I had a clue about any of all this, I worked on a farm where we had this very long extension lead with a 15A plug on one end that went into the only socket we had, and a 13A socket on the other end. The cable was two core, rubber, and had lots of bits of tape covering up the cracks, and the socket had a length of stiffish cable sticking out with a croc clip on it. None of us had a clue what this crock clip was for - I think most of us assumed it was for earthing and clipped it onto the frame of whatever we plugged in (usually an elevator). Eventually it was deemed a p.i.t.a. as it snagged on everything when handling the cable, and it was snipped off.
I'm sure that when it was supplied, the electrician would have given instructions to the effect of always hooking the clip to the water pipes in the building we were working in - thus making a suitable earth for that building, rather than exporting it from a different building. But even though the farm was in the same ownership, that piece of information was never passed on to anyone as far as I can recall.
Rewirable fuses, metal framed equipment (often kept outdoors and the 'lectrics just covered with a plastic bag), no RCDs :eek:
 
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Rewirable fuses, metal framed equipment (often kept outdoors and the 'lectrics just covered with a plastic bag), no RCDs :eek:
good heavens noooo... RCD's on a farm??? no way, the b****y rubbish keeps tripping.:sneaky:
 
And yet, we were expecting the 18th edition to require a local earth electrode for every new installation - and potentially retrofitted for existing installations.
We were (it was there, in black and white, in the drafts) and it was only at the 11th hour that it was removed.

However, those who saw 'a problem' with such a practice obviously do not understand that (in relation to their 'concerns') there is no difference between an 'earth electrode' and a 'bonded extraneous-c-p', the latter of which a high proportion of UK installations already have!

Kind Regards, John
 
We were (it was there, in black and white, in the drafts) and it was only at the 11th hour that it was removed.

However, those who saw 'a problem' with such a practice
Like this one?
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/a-real-moan-tonight.552183/
obviously do not understand that (in relation to their 'concerns') there is no difference between an 'earth electrode' and a 'bonded extraneous-c-p', the latter of which a high proportion of UK installations already have!

Kind Regards, John
 
Like this one? ...
Like any one where someone had a problem with connecting an earth electrode to a TN-C-S installation. As I said ...
.... those who saw 'a problem' with such a practice obviously do not understand that (in relation to their 'concerns') there is no difference between an 'earth electrode' and a 'bonded extraneous-c-p', the latter of which a high proportion of UK installations already have!
In other words, I'm not saying that there is not a theoretical/potential 'problem', but adding an earth electrode produces no more of a 'problem' than already exists if (as is very commonly the case) there are already one or more bonded extraneous-c-ps.

Kind Regards, John
 
Appreciate all replies so far, some relevant and others not so much.

Anyway, assuming there are still some pro sparkies out there who are willing to impart their expertise, the situation has moved on.

I have now acquired a 6kW diesel genset. I want to work out the best way of hooking it up to my home network. If the genset is needed (only in case of a mains power cut), I propose to connect the genset with a 32A arctic lead to a 'Commando' male appliance inlet like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003URQQQM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

The Commando inlet will be connected to a DP 'break before make' changeover (C/O) switch like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07BNND3FR/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A28E6O6ZCTMOZ0&psc=1

The switch is 21 x 14 cm.

What I have worked out so far is this:

- the genset should have a separate earth rod to provide an earth reference point
- one plug on the connection lead (does it make any difference which one?) should have a N to E link wire installed to mimic the TN-C-S supply
- unresolved question is what to do about the DNO earth when the genset is connected and running, as noted in a post above.

The question I am wrestling with is 'where to locate the C/O switch'. I am fairly sure that the only practical location for this is in (or adjacent to) my meter cabinet, pic below.

I am assuming that life will get a bit more complicated if I need to install a second, adjacent cabinet so I am trying to work out if switchgear is available that would fit in the existing cabinet.

The SWA cable connected at the bottom of the 60A Wylex switchfuse runs through the house foundations to a CU in the garage on the opposite side of the house - distance ~20m. This board supplies lights and power ring circuits for part of the house - fixed load is very small and there are no high load appliances. The P&N pair going through the wall at the bottom of the cabinet supplies a 20 way CU with 100A main switch that feeds kitchen appliances and a EV charger socket.

As you can see, it is hard to see how to install the C/O switch (between the meter and the connector block) given the available space.

The question I have, therefore, is whether there an alternative, less bulky, arrangement to the switchfuse that would free up space for the C/O switch. The CU at the other end has a 100A main switch so would it be possible to substitute a simple switch, perhaps in a DIN rail box that would also accommodate the C/O switch?

TIA

Meter layout.jpg
 
.... I have now acquired a 6kW diesel genset. ... - the genset should have a separate earth rod to provide an earth reference point - one plug on the connection lead (does it make any difference which one?) should have a N to E link wire installed to mimic the TN-C-S supply ...
Earthing of the output of a genny would normally be by means of a link within the genny, not in a plug. The purpose of the earthing is not so much to "mimic the TN-C-S supply" as it is to ensuring that the neutral side of the genny output is earthed, so that protective devices in your installation would respond to faults as they should- the same would be true if it were a TN-S, or even TT, installation.

The most crucial question is what is happening inside of your genny you have as regards earthing of the output. There might already be a N-E link. As has been implied, it's also not impossible that the 'centre point' of the genny output is linked to earth - if that were the case and you installed an N-E connection, there would be a big bang, and damage to the genny if it did not have adequate over-current protection.
- unresolved question is what to do about the DNO earth when the genset is connected and running, as noted in a post above.
I think you would have to leave it connected, since you're not allowed to 'switch' the earth.
The question I have, therefore, is whether there an alternative, less bulky, arrangement to the switchfuse that would free up space for the C/O switch.
If 80A is enough, then how about one of these, which is about the same size as a double socket - although I'm not sure how you would/could terminate SWA into it (I have several of those in my installation) ...

upload_2022-2-27_20-26-36.png


Kind Regards, John
 
First thought ...
Is there any way to move that garage supply to the house CU ? That means having a spare way that is not RCD protected. If you can, then that frees up a lot of space.

I would suggest having an earth electrode permanently to the fixed installation - it's not something you need someone to remember to connect when the lights go out.

I wouldn't put N-E links in the cable. That's a recipe for "surprises" later on. Either the cable gets used for something else - or a different cable gets used and the required link isn't there. Ideally you don't want to have options for things to be forgotten.
 
Another thought ...
You can get the C/O switch as a 4 module DIN rail.unit. so you could combine that with DIN rail units for fuse & switch for the garage. So, for example, one case for 7 DIN rail modules.
 
Earthing of the output of a genny would normally be by means of a link within the genny, not in a plug. The purpose of the earthing is not so much to "mimic the TN-C-S supply" as it is to ensuring that the neutral side of the genny output is earthed, so that protective devices in your installation would respond to faults as they should- the same would be true if it were a TN-S, or even TT, installation.

The most crucial question is what is happening inside of your genny you have as regards earthing of the output. There might already be a N-E link. As has been implied, it's also not impossible that the 'centre point' of the genny output is linked to earth - if that were the case and you installed an N-E connection, there would be a big bang, and damage to the genny if it did not have adequate over-current protection.
I think you would have to leave it connected, since you're not allowed to 'switch' the earth.
If 80A is enough, then how about one of these, which is about the same size as a double socket - although I'm not sure how you would/could terminate SWA into it (I have several of those in my installation) ...

View attachment 262531

Kind Regards, John

On the N-E connection question, that came from here:

https://www.justgenerators.co.uk/generator-faq.html

Relevant extract below (my emphasis).

Most buildings now have an RCD built into the consumer unit. This is configured to operate from the mains supply with an earthed neutral, and not from a generator with a floating earth. To utilize this protection device, it is necessary to modify the generator so that it is configured in the same way as the mains supply. This is a simple modification for a qualified electrician, involving adding a link wire from the neutral terminal to the earth terminal. It is recommended to make this connection in the plug that is to be used to connect to the generator. This ensures that the generator is unmodified when it is disconnected from the house, and therefore remains safe.

The plug should be labeled “Do not connect to mains: Neutral-Earth link fitted”. The lead between the generator and the transfer switch is not protected by the RCD, it is therefore recommended to use a steel armored cable for this connection. Finally a local low-impedance earth spike needs to be installed.

Have I misunderstood that?

Thanks for link to the small fused switch. That would do the job but I suppose would need an intermediate metal box to terminate the SWA.
 
Another thought ...
You can get the C/O switch as a 4 module DIN rail.unit. so you could combine that with DIN rail units for fuse & switch for the garage. So, for example, one case for 7 DIN rail modules.
Thanks Simon. Yes, the C/O switch is actually a DIN 4-module unit in an enclosure. Do you have a link for a DIN rail fuse & switch?

The other CU is in a garage but it serves a fair bit of the house (not the kitchen).
 
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