Becoming a Competent Person

[JohnW2]

I agree that the (soon to die) BS7671 definition of Competent Person is essentially the same as the everyday/dictionary definition of "competent", and I don't think I've ever denied that. I think the main problem is that a good few people have the (incorrect) misconception that Part P and/or AD P and/or the scheme operators have defined "Competent Person" to mean something different from the dictionary/BS7671 meaning (i.e. requiring 'scheme membership/registration').

I would suspect that it has been decided to remove the concept (and definition) of "Competent Person" from BS7671 because it is acknowledged (by JPEL/64) that there is a fairly widespread misconception that "Competent Person" refers specifically to a member of a 'Part P competent person self-certification scheme'. This is not helped by the fact that these schemes are very commonly referred to simply as 'Competent Persons Schemes" (or 'CPS').

Of course, as you and BAS have pointed out, if people read all the relevant material (and/or asked the relevant questions), they would know that this was not the case - but the reality is that very many don't, so the misconception/confusion does exist, even if it shouldn't. As you almost agreed in your previous post, one imagines that none of this confusion (which shouldn't, but does, exist) would have arisen had the words "Competent Person" not appeared in the name of these schemes (which I assume started because of the AD P definition).

FWIW, the one other electrician who has contributed to this present discussion has agreed that there is "a great deal of confusion" - so it is not just the view of an outsider.

It's intriguing that one 'innocent little comment' can lead to such a protracted discussion as this!

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

I have editted my previous post

In the Approved Document the following definition is Appendix A
Registered competent person
A competent person registered with a Part P competent person self cert scheme

The first competent refers to the requiremnt that a person has the relevant skills and so on. It is not redefining competent to mean something different or extending the definition.

The second is part of a phrase, so should not be taken on it's own.

I saw the quote regarding the confusion and bas answered it perfectly. There is one sentence in the AD to read and comprehend. It is not a load of legal jargon.

The DPC for Amendment 3 does state that 'Competent Person' is being removed. However it is because the definition in the term 'Skilled person' is a near duplication. There is no reference to the schemes.

To quote Geoof Cronshaw (Wiring Matters 50 - Spring 2014)
Part 2 Definitions

Definitions will be expanded and modified. For example, the definition for ‘skilled and instructed persons’ will be changed. It was also decided that the definition for a ‘competent person’ should be removed, to avoid confusion, as it was considered that some overlap existed between the definition of ‘skilled person’ and ‘competent person’.

 

[JohnW2]

Everything you write is true, but that doesn't alter the fact that, even though there shouldn't be, there clearly is some confusion ('ignorance' if you prefer). However, it's of no direct concern to you or me, since neither of us is either confused or ignorant about the matter, so I doubt there is a need for us to debate the issue ad infinitum.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The world is full of people who are confused by simple, straightforward things.

 

[JohnW2]

The world is full of people who are confused by simple, straightforward things.

True - but I would personally regard that as a reason for (where possible) trying to make those things even simpler, even more straightforward and, hence, hopefully less likely to confuse people.

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

How simple would you like it? Maybe we get the author of Janet and John to write in English for 5 year olds. There is ONE sentence to read. A competent person (who has the skills etc.) who is ammber of one of the schemes can self certify that the installation complies with Building Regulations Anybody else has to notify the LABC before work starts.

The definition for Competent person is not being removed because of the AD, it is because there are 2 almost identical terms in the regs and 'Skilled person' is a term in the International Electrotechnical Vocabulary.

 

[JohnW2]

How simple would you like it? Maybe we get the author of Janet and John to write in English for 5 year olds. There is ONE sentence to read. A competent person (who has the skills etc.) who is ammber of one of the schemes can self certify that the installation complies with Building Regulations Anybody else has to notify the LABC before work starts.

Goodness, you really do have a thing about this (and/or me), don't you?! As I’ve said, I merely made one ‘innocent comment’ about the ‘confusion’, and you have managed to turn it into a couple of pages of debate. Maybe I should remind you that my initial (on-topic) response to the OP, who had asked about becoming ‘a competent person’, was:

I think the answers you have received so far indicate that there are uncertainties about what you are actually asking. Do you want to become 'an electrician', so that you could undertake any electrical work (including 'major jobs, like CU changes and 're-wires') for customers (in which case you might want to become a registered 'self-certifying' member of one of the Competent Persons Schemes), or, as you seem to have written, do you just want to acquire the knowledge and skills (and test equipment) necessary to enable you to do 'small electrical jobs' safely and competently? ... or what?

Have you considered devoting at least a little of your time (you seem to have more available this week than usual) to 'having a go at' EFLI, an electrician who expressed the view that there is a great deal of confusion about this issue, or do you prefer to concentrate on me?

Kind Regards, John