Billionaire, morally defensible?

[Notch7]

Correct

Correct.

Something should be done about it.
Sure.

It's very easy to criticise, but that doesn't produce leadership or governance.
Just as, for further example, there are a few persistent trolls on this and most other forums who only post to have a go at someone else or try to find fault, even if it's a childishly stupid comment.

The situation is going to get worse, as it becomes easier for those "rich" with more mental and physical resources to use tech and AI to find ways to get richer.

What do we do about it? I don't know.
Lots wrong with a "wealth tax", it wouldn't work imo.

I wasn't criticising, I hope it didn't come across like that.

I agree it is extremely difficult to solve.

1) UK govt has lost all its wealth over the last 40 years. Its basically like a person who sold his house and then rented it from a landlord. The govt has sold its council houses, it's sold water infrastructure, gas, electric, Royal Mail, loads of NHS services, etc etc etc.

And now the govt is at the mercy of sovereign wealth funds, foreign investors.....so we have to pay more taxes to get much worse services

2) the govt sold council houses to tenants, which meant they gained wealth, they increased their asset value as hoise prices went up ...but now prices are so high the young can't afford houses, only the wealthy can....so the poor are losing wealth and the rich are gaining it


Solving it is difficult.

Wealth tax won't work.

Land value tax would work but impossible to put in place politically

 

[JohnD]

No, we were a poorer country then.

In 1948 we were a much poorer country than we are now. But we built the NHS. We built schools, hospitals, roads, railways, sewage works, generation stations, the National Grid. And homes.

Today, instead of building, those National assets have been flogged off and have gone to rack and ruin. Our sewers overflow and our schools crumble. Our roads are potholed. We have insufficient homes. Our railways are a disgrace.

It is not a lack of wealth. It is a lack of will.

 

[berty3000]

In 1948 we were a much poorer country than we are now. But we built the NHS. We built schools, hospitals, roads, railways, sewage works, generation stations, the National Grid. And homes.

Today, instead of building, those National assets have been flogged off and have gone to rack and ruin. Our sewers overflow and our schools crumble. Our railways are a disgrace.

It is not a lack of wealth. It is a lack of will.

Mm... in some ways we are poorer than in the late 40s. We were a major industrial power at that time. The difference now is that technology is much improved and cheaper, which to some extent has an illusory effect.

Also, much of what was done at that time - basically involving a massive role for the state, which didn't give up easily much of the control it accumulated during the war - had descended into crisis by the 70s. Most of those formerly great industries had been ruined by years of state meddling and trade unions. The late 40s involved a lot of ambition that was impressive but it was mostly a flawed way to proceed. We are poorer now for those mistakes, amongst other factors.

The reason our sewers and other infrastructure are screwed is because they have not been invested in sufficiently to accommodate the massive increases in demand. Comes back to the old chestnut that if you take in millions and millions of people over short spans of time, many of whom are not net contributors, you have more mouths to feed, more sewage to deal with, more water needed, more space on the roads required, more demand for services, tradesmen, etc. It is inflationary but there isn't the money to massively enhance the infrastructure and services without resorting to more debt. It's a numbers game. We have a treasury that is addicted to the useless metric that is GDP but has no clue about quality of life, particularly for the people who actually belong here.

I think we also have to accept that government is **** at most of what it attemps to do. Most politicians and civil servants have no business skills and have never managed a large organisation or delivered a complex project. The private sector will generally be better at it - assuming competitive markets are feasible. Debatable for things like the railways but they will be garbage whether in public or private hands unless there is the will to pump in vast sums of money so that mainly middle class people who live by train stations get subsidised by everybody else.

 

[JohnD]

The reason our sewers and other infrastructure are screwed is because...

Is because they were sold off cheap to investors who sucked out 70 billion pounds of cash and ran up 60 billion pounds of debts, whose interest payments are crippling and are paid by the customers who obtained no benefit from the loans.

 

[JohnD]

...many of whom are not net contributors, you have more mouths to feed, more sewage to deal with, more water needed, more space on the roads required, more demand for services, tradesmen, etc. ...

Yes, our aging population has a huge and growing number of retired people, who are not working, are less healthy, and put much greater demands on services than the active people of working age who fill the jobs that are needed, and pay National Insurance. Luckily for us, some such workers are willing to help us by coming here from other countries to do our work.

It is perhaps unkind of you to refer to retired motor mechanics, plumbers and teachers as "mouths to feed."

 

[berty3000]

Yes, our aging population has a huge and growing number of retired people, who are not working, are less healthy, and put much greater demands on services than the active people of working age who fill the jobs that are needed, and pay National Insurance. Luckily for us, some such workers are willing to help us by coming here from other countries to do our work.

It is perhaps unkind of you to refer to retired motor mechanics, plumbers and teachers as "mouths to feed."

Unfortunately, a large proportion of those coming "to do our work" are, in fact, delivering junk food on bicycles and washing cars. They are not making a positive contribution to the exchequer and the situation is little more than a subsidy to crap companies like Deliveroo - which the average person, and especially the poor, subsidises. Basic arithmetic, John.

Nothing wrong with people being retired if they are old and, in any case, if they're living off pension and savings accrued.

It would be preferable to stop paying millions of younger people not to work, and perhaps encourage more of the clever and industrious people to have children. A lot of them are having no children.

 

[JohnD]

Nothing wrong with people being retired if they are old and, in any case, if they're living off pension and savings accrued.

So you don't actually mind "mouths to feed" even if they are not working, are using lots of resources, and are not net contributors.

Is it just foreigners you don't like?

 

[Notch7]

in any case, if they're living off pension and savings accrued

State pension is not accrued

Working people today pay for people getting state pension today....thank goodness we have lots of foreign workers to improve the ratio of working to retired.

 

[berty3000]

So you don't actually mind "mouths to feed" even if they are not working, are using lots of resources, and are not net contributors.

Is it just foreigners you don't like?

Depends if they've paid into the system or not.

Tell me, why do you comment so much on subjects that you are hopelessly ignorant about? It is like listening to a silly teenager. Aren't you a bit old for being an adolescent lefty?

 

[JohnD]

Depends if they've paid into the system or not.

So the foreign workers that prop up the NHS, for example, and staff the care home you'll end up in, or drive the cabs that bring you home from spoonies, or cook and serve in restaurants and bars, or deliver your parcels, or clean hotel rooms, or pick your vegetables, or slaughter your pork, or bake and pack your bread.

You were very resentful earlier of the people who keep the country going.

 

[JonathanM]

In 1948 we were a much poorer country than we are now. But we built the NHS. We built schools, hospitals, roads, railways, sewage works, generation stations, the National Grid. And homes.

Today, instead of building, those National assets have been flogged off and have gone to rack and ruin. Our sewers overflow and our schools crumble. Our roads are potholed. We have insufficient homes. Our railways are a disgrace.

It is not a lack of wealth. It is a lack of will.

I found this article about tentative steps to reverse decades of consensus on a global level.

The Biden Administration Just Declared the Death of Neoliberalism

The White House has called for a “new Washington consensus.” Can it become a reality?

nymag.com

Neoliberalism’s loosening grip over American political and intellectual life has created an opening for a progressive reformation of global economic governance. Jake Sullivan’s speech last week confirmed that the Biden administration intends to seize that opportunity.

 

[berty3000]

So the foreign workers that prop up the NHS, for example, and staff the care home you'll end up in, or drive the cabs that bring you home from spoonies, or cook and serve in restaurants and bars, or deliver your parcels, or clean hotel rooms, or pick your vegetables, or slaughter your pork, or bake and pack your bread.

You were very resentful earlier of the people who keep the country going.

There are far more foreigners using the NHS than are working for it. So those who are working for it are essentially needed to help accommodate the millions who now place demands on the service. And they will get old as well so then presumably even more foreigners are needed to serve them? It sounds like a ponzi scheme.

I don't use taxis and we shouldn't be taking in low skill immigrants do such work. There are millions of unemployed already here who can do it instead and should stop being paid by the tax payer not to work.

 

[berty3000]

I found this article about tentative steps to reverse decades of consensus on a global level.

The Biden Administration Just Declared the Death of Neoliberalism

The White House has called for a “new Washington consensus.” Can it become a reality?

nymag.com

Biden has dementia.

Can it meaningfully be referred to as "the Biden administration"?

 

[JohnD]

So yours is just an anti-foreigner rant.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Unless something is done about it, the wealthy will continue to accumulate more and more wealth and the people and the govt will have less and less.

That is not part of the social contract.

ok this isn't billionaires in the main, however something has gone very wrong, unless you're a CEO

the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 399-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay; that is up from 366-to-1 in 2020 and a big increase from 20-to-1 in 1965 and 59-to-1 in 1989.

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978: CEOs were paid 399 times as much as a typical worker in 2021

What this report finds: Corporate boards running America’s largest public firms are giving top executives outsize compensation packages that have grown much faster than the stock market and the pay of typical workers, college graduates, and even the top 0.1%. In 2021, we project that a CEO at...

www.epi.org