Boiler Saga Continues - Probable Leak...(Update 24/12/20 - Trace and Access visit)

[siross85]

I thought you had proven several times that the problem was on the pipework...
I'm guessing they didn't flush out all the water (how do they do that?) or the gas pressure was insufficient or the wind blew it through the wall vents.

That's exactly what I thought which is why I wanted to pin point where the leak was in order not to have to take off skirting, laminate and tiled floor. In terms of insufficient pressure or wind I can't really comment on that but he assured me that if there was a leak the equipment would pick it up.

 

[polesapart]

See if you can re-pipe the rads from drops above.

I've done this in a similar situation (tiled ground floor).

The evidence shown before is that the leak's on the downstairs pipework....rusty plastic fittings are a clue.

I agree.

O.P. If this is still in any doubt you could replace one of the ground floor radiator plugs with a threaded elbow, suitable reducers and a pressure guage. Refill and run system with ground floor isolated.

 

[siross85]

I've done this in a similar situation (tiled ground floor).



I agree.

O.P. If this is still in any doubt you could replace one of the ground floor radiator plugs with a threaded elbow, suitable reducers and a pressure guage. Refill and run system with ground floor isolated.

I forgot to acknowledge the idea from @Gasguru apologies, it sounds like an interesting idea. Would that mean that the pipework under the floor effectively comes redundant? Then chasing down the wall into the rads? Could that be done on a bit by bit basis isolating different parts of the downstairs at a time to see what works?

In terms of the threaded elbow idea, apologies I don't fully understand this idea?

 

[Gasguru]

Dependent on your radiators you may have a 1/2 female BSP thread where the air vent/blanking plug is located.
It's a simple matter to screw in some fittings and a pressure gauge and monitor the pressure once you have isolated the down circuit from the main system.

 

[polesapart]

Would that mean that the pipework under the floor effectively comes redundant?

Yes

Then chasing down the wall into the rads?

You could chase in but more practical would be exposed 15mm copper pipework or 10mm copper in mini trunking. Aesthetics vs installation time and mess.

Could that be done on a bit by bit basis isolating different parts of the downstairs at a time to see what works?

Not without taking up the ground floor which you are anxious to avoid!





Converting to drops would mean taking up the relevant floor coverings and boarding on the first floor to extend/upsize the pipework to suit the new layout.

 

[siross85]

Dependent on your radiators you may have a 1/2 female BSP thread where the air vent/blanking plug is located.
It's a simple matter to screw in some fittings and a pressure gauge and monitor the pressure once you have isolated the down circuit from the main system.

Something like this?

Pardon my ignorance (again), if I were to do that what would that do? Would it be able to locate the rough location of where the pressure is dropping?

Yes


You could chase in but more practical would be exposed 15mm copper pipework or 10mm copper in mini trunking. Aesthetics vs installation time and mess.



Not without taking up the ground floor which you are anxious to avoid!


Converting to drops would mean taking up the relevant floor coverings and boarding on the first floor to extend/upsize the pipework to suit the new layout.

Thanks for that. All the floor upstairs (besides the stairs and landing is laminate flooring as the downstairs so that might still be a slight issue.

My main problem with getting the floor up downstairs is the time required to do so. If it were done in a day it would be OK but that's highly doubtful. It might be possible to take parts up at a time? The tile floor shouldn't be too much of an issue as the plywood sub floor would be OK left uncovered. It's the laminate in the family room that's more of an issue as it's the main room we use.

 

[dilalio]

Had a job about a week ago...

200 year old cottage & once bakery in Barnet, all joined up with covered conservatory/atrium type thing. Built with no foundations, straight onto ground!

Grnd floor circuit, isolated and dropping pressure. Had to repipe - surface mounted, as neat as we could.
Left most of the old pipework under the mixture of stone flagged, red tiled and concrete floors.
It was done in copper and as we dismantled sections, that were protruding from underground and in our way, several joints (soldered) just pulled apart in our hands!
So you can imagine what the state of things must be "underground"!
Homeowner was 80 year old lady who was shielding... Heating now sorted and pipes will be boxed in when she's ready.

 

[Keithmac]

From a layman's point of view, you've proved without a shadow of a doubt its a problem with the downstairs circuit by isolating it and proving it.

I don't know if it's common practice to just chuck the pipes on the floor but to me that just smacks of a poor job, no pride. Personally I'd have clipped the pipes to the joists (right or wrong).

In over 20 years of automotive work I've never used any kind of sealant in cooling systems and never will, find the fault and fix it properly.

A pressure gauge on the downstairs radiator is a great idea.

 

[sxturbo]

In over 20 years of automotive work I've never used any kind of sealant in cooling systems and never will, find the fault and fix it properly.

Yes, but if the car is stuck in the middle of nowhere and they don't have recovery, a stop leak as an emergency isn't going to hurt it.

No one has said to use it as a permanent fix. And in an ideal world no one would ever need it as the faults will be fixed straight away, but alas we don't live in an ideal world ( unless someone can prove to me otherwise)
The op has stated that now isn't a good time to be ripping the floors up with a toddler around, with no means of them getting out the house for a couple of days due to a mix of covid and the weather.

Having been through major renovation the last couple of years with a toddler I absolutely understand the op's point of view, I was lucky I could ship the wife and child out for a day or 2 at a time, but the times I couldn't it was very difficult to carry out works.

P.s surface mount pipes look absolutely ****, and should be avoided wherever possible

 

[dilalio]

P.s surface mount pipes look absolutely ****, and should be avoided wherever possible

We made them look good enough... And it wasn't possible to avoid. Heat is more important to some, than aesthetics!

 

[sxturbo]

We made them look good enough... And it wasn't possible to avoid. Heat is more important to some, than aesthetics!

Again it depends on feasibility.. it's not always possible to avoid

 

[siross85]

I think taking up the floor and repiping is the only way forward, I just don't know when it's going to be possible to do that.

In the mean time, if I just continue to top up the boiler regularly and bleed the rads every evening will that do any damage at all?

Edit, one thing I am going to do is do some testing on how much water is being expelled from the condensing/prv pipe during different scenarios. Partly because I noticed water when the heating wasn't on...

 

[dilalio]

Long term, fresh potable water won't do your metallic components any good (ie heat exchanger(s)) as it will facilitate corrosion, as the system becomes increasingly devoid of inhibitor.

Would be advisable to add some every so often until you can remedy the leak.

FWIW, I have exactly the same problem

 

[siross85]

Long term, fresh potable water won't do your metallic components any good (ie heat exchanger(s)) as it will facilitate corrosion, as the system becomes increasingly devoid of inhibitor.

Would be advisable to add some every so often until you can remedy the leak.

FWIW, I have exactly the same problem

Thanks for the advice, I'll look in to adding some inhibitor. How often would you advise putting some in?

How are you going about fixing your problem?

I'm thinking re-piping will be easier than searching for the leak itself. The biggest problem is the open plan family room (Kitchen, lounge, diner) where little one spends most of her time, if I could keep this relatively intact it would be easier. The pipework runs directly from the boiler in the garage in to the kitchen and it's only serving one ginormous radiator in the family room so it should be straight forward enough to remove skirting and part of the floor to run a new connecting pipe and disconnecting the old stuff. At that point I could then check whether the issue is still present and if so continue to repipe downstairs? After writing that down it sounds slightly far fetched, I'm not entirely sure where the connecting pipes for the other rooms downstairs actuall are.

 

[Keithmac]

Run it around the edge of the rooms and if you have any issues you're not ripping the whole thing up.

If you can run on kitchen cabinet walls you'd never know you'd been in.