Buying a property large plot to build poss stream

[lostinthelight]

When looking at property I go on LR e-portal services and download Title deeds of surrounding properties and can also get a "flood risk" report. Also also old Tithe maps can be useful.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/tithes/

 

[icewinder]

As a follow up,
The deeds have come back showing both plots now under the one deed and been granted absolute ownership which is great but mines, minerals and ancillary are excepted.

My Solictor is looking into it as I type. I've read up on this clause and it seems that anything below the soil level is legally owned by someone.

Has anyone faced this issue on land when developing land that's part of a property say an extension or another property on the land to the side ?.

 

[SFK]

Might be of interest:

https://www.howespercival.com/articles/mines-and-minerals-how-do-they-affect-my-development-land/

 

[icewinder]

Thanks for the link, I spent last night reading up on "Mines and Minerals and Ancillary excepted" as I'd never come across it before.

The property is bang in the middle of a large housing estate so any mining would never in the memory of man be allowed.
"Ancillary" means whoever owns the mineral rights is allowed full access onto your land to dig to the minerals but again, with houses on three sides and a main road the chances of this been granted would be nil.

Were it does become tricky is from a legal point of view. Although they will never get permission to dig you can't either without permission from the minerals deeds owner or you can be sued by them for trespassing.

I suppose this is how the mineral owners make their money if they wanted to.

Just wondered, if the mine & minerals ownership is on hopefully a separate deed can you purchase it ?, in this case I'm 95% it's the coal board. I say this because lenders frown upon lending on such properties.

 

[Nozzle]

https://maps.nls.uk/os/25k-gb-1937-61/index.html

Enjoy!!! (You can spend hours looking at these maps). adjust the transparency of the sat photo to suit.

Nozzle

 

[SFK]

if the mine & minerals ownership is on hopefully a separate deed can you purchase it ?, in this case I'm 95% it's the coal board

Sorry, no idea.
I would guess not -> my gut feeling is that they want the hastle of discussing a Thousand Pound deal that they would then have to record.

However - note if you ask then you cannot (i think) get Indemnity Insurance aginst that occurance.
SFK

 

[icewinder]

Well I managed to eventually speak to my Solicitor and discuss he concerns. Her concern is that she still does not think the lady owns this piece of extra land that's in her physical historical 1970's boundary fencing she only owns what was in the original deeds in measurements and drawings.

The whole property has now fully been registered in full with LR both plots joint under one deed with absolute ownership on the full plot certified. My Solicitor requested from the sellers Solicitor what evidence did they use when submitting the register update to LR (plot added to original property) to show basically as proof that the lady actually owns this extra plot of land or if she purchased it at any point.

The sellers Solicitors refused to show my Solicitor what evidence they submitted to LR as proof of ownership. My Solicitor thinks they used OS survey showing the aerial boundary and maps but no deeds or purchase receipts just maps and words to say she lived there for 50 years.

The original deeds mention in text the actual plot itself is "333 sq yard" which matches to this picture in the original deeds. If you measure the whole plot which includes what she claims she has always owned it is nearer 700sq yard so although she claims the original deeds boundary line was wrong the measurements then I would think that on the original deeds it would have been written in as near 700 sq yard, for me the surveyor back in the 70's wouldn't get both the measurement and boundary drawing line wrong at the time the deeds were drawn up. The lady always claimed that original deed boundary line was wrongly drawn at the time this deed was drafted (she bought the house from new via a developer back in the 70's) and that she was owned all the land from the beginning.


So, my Solicitors concerns are, she thinks there's a lack of evidence used by the sellers Solicitors to register the whole plot as one. She requested the evidence but the Solicitor refused to forward this on. My Solicitor reckons that the sellers Solicitors will have used simple OS and pictures claiming she has lived on the whole plot since the time it was built 1971.


The problem I have is, My Solicitor has seen the old deeds and informed me so I am now aware. this means legally that if someone came back say in 2-3-5-10 years time with a physical paper deeds of ownership of the plot and I had prior knowledge when I bought this might happen at some point then there's a chance I would be liable as I was informed by my Solicitor at the time of purchase.


But had she not have seen the original deeds and knew nothing of it and only seen the new deeds showing the whole plot LR would then be liable and the lady who sold it would be in court. So right now as it stands the property is fully registered, with Absolute ownership and my Solicitor is not 100% sure she owns it. Her words not mine "I might be wrong but......" and what if she is wrong ?.

Can someone please tell me how stringent & thorough are LR when adding extra land someone claims to own to their property when the go to register it as a whole A & B plots joint under one boundary ?. Would LR take a chance or would they need to be 1000% sure ?. I'm torn, why would LR run the risk of been sued if the original land owner suddenly pops up with a deed ? How much evidence would the seller need to produce to the seller and would they simply add this land without a purchase receipt or another deed ?. I'm thinking that the sellers Solicitors showed all this to LR but simply don't think it's necessary to show to my Solicitor as it's now registered.


My Solicitor said as I have now prior knowledge (although it might never happen been 50 years now) of this info I would be liable but if both of us didn't and we only saw the new deeds their wouldn't be as issue as LR and the lady would be at fault. In my eyes having doubts or "What if" is there to cover my Solicitors back just incase. Had she not seen it she said be no probs.


Any help would be greatly accepted as I am torn

 

[sxturbo]

I thought normally when claiming land the LR attempt to make contact with who they believe to be the land owner and if they don't respond they give you the land.

Maybe my understanding is incorrect.

 

[denso13]

this means legally that if someone came back say in 2-3-5-10 years time with a physical paper deeds of ownership of the plot and I had prior knowledge when I bought this might happen at some point then there's a chance I would be liable as I was informed by my Solicitor at the time of purchase.

I think that is correct. If there is a mistake in the title, such as including too much land, then a court can order the LR to change the title deeds at any time if the error comes to light.

 

[jacko555]

If the land has been fenced in and "hers" for 50 years, would adverse possession play a role?

 

[icewinder]

Thanks guys for your replies I do appreciate any advise or views.


Regarding LR contacting the owner of the land when registering the old and new plot as one plot in total. What happens if the plots never been registered and no one knows who owns it and cannot be found?.

So if someone, lets say, rolls up in a few years time with the physical paper deeds and says "Hang on, that lands mine" who would be liable
Me
The seller
Or LR ?

My Solicitor said its me because she raised her concerns and now I'm aware ......

The thing is, the new deeds clearly show the whole plot now registered as one and with absolute ownership. If I rolled up and bought not knowing all this I'd be non the wiser and neither would be any Solicitor.

Surely LR wouldn't make it absolute they'd make is Possessory ownership if they had any doubts.

I would think the sellers Solicitors would have submitted evidence of some sort to prove its hers. If they didn't surely the LR would be liable every 5 minutes over handing over land.
My Solicitor has asked the sellers Solicitors what evidence did they submit but the won't tell mine.

There has been abit of bad blood between the two Solicitors so I'm not sure if the sellers Solicitors is actually hiding anything or their sticking 2 fingers up as if to say "What's it got to do with you, it's registered now init!?".

I can understand in a way my Solicitors concerns. She would like to see proof of ownership of this extra land or she'd like to see what evidence but does she need to see this ?, isn't that the role of LR not hers ?.

If she right casting doubt if the LR have rubbed stamped it?
Thanks again all

 

[lostinthelight]

I took AP of a piece of unregistered land in 1986 and applied for title in 2013. LR only awarded PT but I can apply for absolute title in another couple of years. If in the next two years anyone comes along and can show they have a better claim to the title I loose it.

 

[icewinder]

I took AP of a piece of unregistered land in 1986 and applied for title in 2013. LR only awarded PT but I can apply for absolute title in another couple of years. If in the next two years anyone comes along and can show they have a better claim to the title I loose it.

Thanks for that, this is what makes me think this is a strange one and I'm not sure why my Solicitor still has concerns considering the whole plot has now been granted with absolute and the boundary now matches the sale description.


If there was the slightest doubt I would imagine LR would only grant adverse or possessory ownership just to cover their backs.The land has been apart of her boundary since she purchased the new build property in 1971.

 

[Tricky-Dicky]

that's in her physical historical 1970's boundary fencing
If she has use of this land, and it has been fenced off, will she be able to claim 'squatters rights' ?
Squatting and the law: Squatters' rights to property - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[icewinder]

I don't think LR would grant the owner absolute ownership based on squatters rights, I would imagine she'll need far more.

Does anyone know what combination of evidence do LR require before absolute is granted and if they do and someone appears at a later date claiming rights who would be liable?, me, LR, the seller, her Solicitor or my Solicitor ?.
I'm just wondering how strict are as the sellers Solicitors have refused to reveal to my Solicitor proof of ownership they produced to LR. The process took 5 months for the land to be registered.