BX/Xantia (And possibly C5??) handbrake.

[david and julie]

Discs aside.

The handbrake is also a secondary brake in the advent of brake failure.

Obviously the front brakes are more powerful than the rear.

So my question is, is this a good idea in theory that went wrong in practice?

 

[pipme]

Had a Renault 16 (the original Hatchback?) many years ago, the handbrake (rear drums) was the umbrella type, one problem was the length of cable required for the right hand drive vehicle .. used to freeze up (on !!). Great car, different wheelbase left to right, due to rear torsion bar suspension !! Still stuck like the proverbial when cornering, used to lean, then lean some more, then she'd retain that attitude throughout the bend ... converted to 'van' in seconds .. rear seats out in a trice !!
Twas 'mid engine' too !! Front wheel drive. From the front:- final drive : gearbox : clutch : inline 4 cyl engine ..... A good old workhorse !!

The TK Bedford lorry of those days had a disc handbrake operating on the propshaft ! that seemed to work ok.

Rover 2000 from same era-ish, had rear inboard discs and normally placed drums for the handbrake ... a real pain to change rear pads.. therefore expensive.

For today's car, disc brakes are, more efficient, and usually simple to maintain ... But from the point of a handbrake I guess the means of application is the problem, I can imagine the extra cost in production for a separate system .... I would not want extra drums ... I reckon some compliance in the system would do the job !! ( have seen similar probs in aerospace).

P

 

[securespark]

D & J

Yeah, I think so. Citroen (and others) have had belting ideas (on paper at least) that did not translate into the metal.

BTW, Julie (my missus) did not believe me that I had put the h/brake on properly......Oh well....

 

[david and julie]

pipme...perhaps the transmission brake on the TK stayed cool because it was only the handbrake. Whereas the problem ones are the wheel brake too and therefore hot before you start.

I agree it appears to be an application rather than a disc problem. I would of thought(as previously mentioned) a spring loaded device/energy store which maintained a constant pressure would be simple enough to design though.

The problem with some safety legislation is the manufacturers can't easily sort these problems, without going through the whole procedure again. Plus every time they do have a recall that can get bad press.

My guess for original hatchback is the late 1950's Austin A40 Farina.

 

[AdamW]

I remember seeing a Chevy Astro van that had been heavily modified. One of the modifications was aftermarket brakes. The discs on the rear each had a second smaller calliper purely for the handbrake. This might not seem like it would help at all but when you have an entirely separate parking brake system, where the only common part is the disc, you can optimise the two different systems for their intended job. The handbrake system could have some kind of energy store (similar to pip's suggestion).

Has anyone here driving a new Renault Scenic? Had one as a hirecar over the weekend and it had an automatic parking brake. As in, no handbrake lever. It automatically takes itself off when it senses you are trying to pull away and only reengages when you turn the car off or operate the manual control (which is where a bonnet pull is usually mounted!). A very interesting car to sit in, but after a couple of days all you can think is "and how much will it cost to repair THAT when it goes wrong at 3 years and 1 day!" I presume it was a hydraulically actuated traditional ratchet mechanism, you could hear a click when it released.

 

[AdamW]

Just had another thought (two in one day?!)

Hydraulic rally-style handbrakes and dragster-style hydraulic line-locks as the parking brake mechanism will fail the MoT. Reason being, they have a tendency to "leak" the fluid pressure back out of the brakes and there have been cases of cars rolling away down hills.

Doesn't relate entirely to this piece but thought I would throw it into the fray.

 

[pipme]

If just by the rear door, then yes, A40 was first (advertised as saloon and countryman tho') ... But, if also defined by the transformable interior .. then I guess the Renault 16, it seems that the '16' is given first family hatchback status .......

Brakes.
I am sold on the lack of compliance in the handbrake system now. Maybe due to the length of system connection, quite short distance to front wheels from handbrake ....
Just musing on the TK Bedford transmission handbrake as a different type of brake. Ok if one has a propshaft and plenty of ground clearance !!

Not a handbrake but .....
'Exhaust' brake!! experience of that on a Lancia coach in Switzerland 1966 ... quite astonishing !

P

 

[david and julie]

pipme....They still fit exhaust brakes on commercial vehicles. I've had no dealings with them but I believe they use the engine compression somehow.

They also use retarders which are similar to the old TK, but work magnetically.

The purpose of both of the above was to hold back or slow down the vehicle on long downhill roads without using the footbrake. This saves overheating (brake fade) and also extends the sevice life of the brake componants. As you say they work well, on a coach I should think people think there is something wrong when they first hear the noise!

 

[pipme]

DJ,

The 2 Belgian drivers at the time, explained about the exhaust brake, they gave us all a demo on a really steep pass, the sounds were not too bad as I remember .... we all felt very confident of the stopping power that coach had, without 'frying the brakes' as they so aptly put it.
In fact I just looked up 'exhaust brake' on google ... loads of info !!

One such site http://www.truckpartseast.com/exhaust.php
I did not realise that diesel engines suffered from a lack of engine braking, until that coach journey !! ....
Maybe one reason, among many, that disc brakes all round have flourished so !

P

 

[AdamW]

Best engine braking I ever found was on my old 125cc motorbike. Really slowed it down if you fully released the throttle. Really helped the rideability of it, being able to change speed rapidly up and down without too much brake use.

 

[david and julie]

pipme.... Maybe the sound insulation is better on a coach than truck, where there are quite loud. Or maybe rear engined?

Reading on the link, about the engine mods required, they sound expensive unless fitted at vehicle manufacture.

Found a piccy of the type similar to the TK. http://www.zelusl.com/

Sould think they would be a cheaper aftermarket version.

Either way they must be essential for heavy vehicles in hilly areas.

 

[pipme]

Cannot remember too much about that Lancia coach ... 1966 !!
Except that it had a reasonable loo at the back was comfortably equipped with partial reclining seats, luggage under floor, so we were quite removed from the road.
Engine under floor somewhere
(10 days near Monte Carlo 21 guineas a head a guinea was 21 old shillings, today:- 21*5 = 105 P... Lunn's as they then were)

Saw the World Cup Final on tv from there !!

P

 

[chambsesf]

Pip - there appears to be a flaw in your calculation. 21 guineas = £22.05 based upon 1 guinea being £1 and 1 shilling i.e. £1.05.

Returning to the topic in question, we had a 1994 Xantia SXTD for about 4 years, and never once had any problems with the handbrake. Maybe due to the fact that we live in Cheshire, not known for having a hilly landscape....

Long gone now though, replaced by a boring and orthodox Peugeot 406 and VW Sharan (which is possibly the worst car I have ever had allied to perhaps the worst dealership service I have ever encountered) Had it since new in 2001 and can't wait to get shut of it.

 

[pipme]

I Said :-

10 days near Monte Carlo 21 guineas a head a guinea was 21 old shillings, today:- 21*5 = 105 P... Lunn's as they then were)

I only priced overall in Guineas - 21
Then related Guinea to Pence, 21 x 5 = 105P (asterisk same as 'x' as in multiplication) for the younger element .. Did not give cost in £'s ... Hokay ?
I originally went for a VW Golf .. in 1999 .. Useless main dealer, quoted bottom book for my Nissan in PX without seeing the car ... I was cash buyer, I knew more about the VW than the salesman .. Thanks but no thanks... Back to Nissan... they were all over me like a blanket, even tho' they had serviced my PX, only made me offer after carefully checking it out .. Top book PX, now 60k M and coming up 6 yrs later, only problem with new Nissan purchased, recent wiper linkage failure ... Suits me sir !!

 

[AdamW]

Back to the guineas, I have read that the guinea was invented by auctioneers, whereby the extra shilling was the auction-house's cut on the price.

E.g. If they put up a painting that sold for 100 guineas, the seller would receive 100 pounds, and the auction house would keep 5 pounds.

I have never had any experience of VW dealers, but when my parents went in to buy a Polo for my mum they were very rude. Funny, cos I always assumed that VWs being relatively expensive cars for their class they would be polite and lavish cups of tea upon the customers. My local Skoda dealers are lovely. Same car, so you must pay the premium for rudeness.