ceiling joists not supported

[teracir]

I have exisitng ceiling joists which are not supported with load bearing walls. the span from wall plate to walle plate is about 8 meters and since it is not possible to buy 4 x2 in 8 meter lengths, small lengths of various sizes have been used and have been nailed together, is this an acceptable practice?

how can i stengthen the ceiling?

 

[hotrod]

No it's not acceptable practice. I find it hard to believe lengths of 4"x2" have been nailed together to span 8000mm. Are you sure those measurements are correct. Can you post a photo?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Are they fixed to ceiling bearers above?

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Are you serious?

4x2 would struggle to span 8 metres in the best of condition. A load bearing wall (or several!) must've been removed.
I'm absolutely amazed your ceiling hasn't collapsed.

Can't see any real alternative other than to put steels through at 1/3 points to break up the span, or take down the entire ceiling and start again.

 

[big-all]

yep you would need somthing like 9x3" at that span lol

4x2 maximum is about half that span at 13 to 14ft

if you double the span you need to increase the timber by maybe 3 fold

 

[Static]

Is the roof made from trusses (ie lots of diagonal struts from rafter to ceiling ties)?

 

[JohnD]

photo! photo!

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=129539

edited:

aha!
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1660542#1660542

 

[Static]

photo! photo!

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=129539

edited:

aha!
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1660542#1660542[/QUOTE]
Thanks, photo would help..

But just to let you know a 50x100 joist would fail under its own weight, unless it was pre-cambered by about 200mm which is rediculous..

The joists are taking support from another means.. photos of the loft may reviel this or this stud wall mentioned in your other post is load bearing..

 

[JohnD]

the other post says that there is (was?) a wall under the ceiling, which the timbers stood on, so it had two half-spans.

 

[teracir]

Thanks for all the responses,

I will get some photos taken and upload them.

I have had more responses to this post compared to the other.

Mot of you have guessed it right, I have got partition walls half way though the lenth specified hence my previous post as I could not understand whether partition wall could also act as a load bearing wall.

Once I upload some photoes it will become alot clearer

 

[teracir]

This is the first time I am uploading photos so not sure whether it will work?

//www.diynot.com/network/teracir/albums/6253



Please see the photos and provide comments[/img]

 

[alittlerespect]

Hi

First thought is that Mickey Mouse has come out to play - or someone is really taking the pxss!

You have a timber stud partition midway - which is your saving grace, otherwise the whole load would be down around your neck!!

Notwithstanding the bogged job! The clear span for 4x2 is just under 2 metres (I suggest you draw your own conclusion!)

Assuming that the timber stud is mid-way and you intend keeping the stud wall - you could get away with removing the existing joists and using 8" x 2" timber joists and 2ft centres, but this would only accomodate a clear span of just over 4 metre's!
If you want a clear 8m span then you would need to introduce an RSJ or 2 to take the place of the stud wall and for that you will need to appiont a Structural Engineer. If you introduce 2 RSJs equally spaced you would get to reduce the joist size to 6" x 2"!

One final comment - I wouldn't go walking about on top of those ceiling joists as it will be asking for trouble.

Good Luck!

 

[teracir]

WOOOOWWWW

bLOODy HELL, THAT BAD!

I was thinking of replacing the existing stud wall and replacing it with 4 by 2 at 300 centres (install adition support on level below) and add further 4 by 2 between the existing thus reducing the distance between the exisitng joists.

As I mentioned earlier, this simply ment to be a storage space and adding structural engineer input/ RSJ's is not simply feasible?

Any alternatoves/ suggestions are welcome?


Cheers for the feedback

 

[Blagard]

I have actually seen this type of thing before in an old terraced property.

I refused to walk across the ceiling joists but the builder who called me in to see it, did. It was like he was on a springboard
Some moron had removed a partition because he thought it didn't do anything. A remaining partition like your arrangement plus ceiling binders was all that stopped it collapsing

In this case it is just wrong. No sign on the lath mark spacing to show where a partition may have been removed under the lapped rafters.

Keep the partition, get some new ceiling rafters up on the lapped side. Leave the existing, as they help keep the wall plates in place! If there are binders midway of each span then continue to use them. If not, you need to install them.

Use the loft as normal after that. It would not be suitable for any heavy storage so don't board it out.

If you do want a boarded out loft get someone in to design an upgrade to the structure based on a proper survey. It's just not on doing it from photo's on a forum.

Edit: I just noticed the double roof rafters and collars below the purlins, then props(?) off the ceiling joists! Or perhaps hanging the ceiling joists from the roof applies in this case Sort of a crude truss I think with lapped bottom member

 

[ajrobb]

You can just copy and paste the picture's DIYnot BBCode to get a thumbnail in your post

Untitled

• teracir
• 14 Aug 2010
• 2

I'd be tempted to drop king posts from the apex of the roof down to the joists