Circular saw safety

[Roger928]

Well its in a good testing ground. Americans remove riving knives, guards and any thing else that gets in the way of cutting.

 

[big-all]

i think the problem is when it give people wrongly the impression that danger has been removed
they take less care and can be overconfident with what they think they are capable off

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Personally I don't see any use for table saws on site. I can do everything they do and more with my rail saws.

Then you can't be doing heavy enough stuff! In fact until about 3 years ago I might possibly have agreed with you. Then I got involved with several large, heavy refurbs on listed buildings and my opinion changed. Sure, you can cut down a 6 metre long 10 x 2in softwood joist to 8 x 2in with a TS55 and a guide rail - but if you have 30 or 40 of them it's a considerably faster (and arguably a heck of a lot more accurate) to do the job on a table saw. Sure you can make-up repeat 50mm rips of 12mm plywood with a rail saw, but again it's faster (and arguably a heck of a lot more accurate) to do the job on a table saw once you've done the initial breaking down on with a rail saw.

I see the two tools as complimentary, not either or, and I reckon that having a table saw on one multi-million pound job saved us around £3.5k to £4k (against a saw cost of under £600) over 18 months because we were able to resaw surplus timber, do specific sizing jobs on site and get on with jobs rather than waiting for the timber merchant to turn up. At times we even took on basic manufacturing on demand (e.g. hundreds of metres of 5-part skirting/boxing) where to have to wait for the workshop to deliver would have caused us to delay other trades following on behind (and possibly incurred penalties to boot). By having the resawing capability on site we also saved ourselves a lot of standing time, reduced knock-on impact on the projects as a whole and we additionally managed to dramatically reduce the amount of timber waste we were skipping (critical on a very restricted city centre site with next to no storage space) because we regularly resawed construction timbers on demand rather than having to wait for deliveries to be made. So there really are some jobs for which a table saw is a far, farbetter choice.

Aside from the safety gimmekry it looks like a quality piece of equipment.
Similar to the Powermatic machines. That you never see here.
Mebbe now that were leaving the eu we will get those big dado arboured machines released to the diy masses?

You don't see the Powermatic because until relatively recently they didn't come anywhere close to meeting European safety standards (e.g. no riving knife, inadequate guarding, no brake, etc - they still have no braking AFAIK) as well as being ridiculously expensive (when imported) for what they are (I don't think they hod a candle to the Wadkin AGS of yore or the Sedgwicks of today). I wouldn't hold your breath for safety standards being dropped to the appallingly low American standards, either - in part because we in the UK were one of the main instigators of the current woodworking machinery standards and regulations, along with the Germans and the Swiss (SUVA). So the braking and safety requirements simply aren't going to disappear. In any case the long arbors really started to disappear after the 1974 regs came into force (yes, that long ago) - something I'd have expected a trained woodworker to both know and understand.

There are a few other points to take on board I feel; the through housings produced using dado heads were always a poor quality cheap-jack solution and you won't ever find them in quality work; they are more safely produced using either a radial arm saw and dado head or a router and a straight guide (and always were); they aren't really that suitable for MFC (e.g. kitchen/bedroom cabinets, etc) or MDF because they weaken the material considerably - an issue when it comes to manhandling completed items up flights of stairs, etc - and in any case unlike in the USA we don't really use a huge amount of plywood for carcassing in the UK, mainly on cost grounds; rebates in a professional shop are better made using a spindle moulder or a heavy router - again safer, too; but more to the point since the 1970s we've seen a shift in jointing technology with a move towards dowelling, biscuits, Dominos, etc for small scale carcase construction which have largely done away with any need that there ever was for through housings or end of panel rebates. I think the reason people want dado heads is possibly because they see them on YouTube and without understanding they think it's the only way to do things (they don't understand how much of a PIA they can be to set-up accurately). There seems to be little understanding that American weekend warriors are really quite a backwards bunch at times who still seemingly have difficulty taking on board such "modern" concepts as the plunge router (1949) and the plunge/rail saw (1964) - don't even consider biscuits of Dominos. Ah, ignorance is such bliss! (BTW to counter this my cousin in California is a professional cabinetmaker who uses plunge routers, Dominos and plunge/rail saws - so there is a flip side to all that)

 

[Roger928]

Sure you can make-up repeat 50mm rips of 12mm plywood with a rail saw, but again it's faster (and arguably a heck of a lot more accurate) to do the job on a table saw once you've done the initial breaking down on with a rail saw.

I do hundreds of those with my 270mm Makita circular saw and fence guide straight from a full stack of ply. Only lifting is done with the forklift.
Far faster and more accurate than a table saw or rail saw. One man operation.
Plus I can slice a batch of sheets in one pass.

 

[SammyInnit]

It's a real shame Bosch had the kibosh put on its reaxx saw by the sawstop company. Would have been great to see.

 

[big-all]

as an example i have the new 54v dewalt table saw
it took about 20 mins to make a threashold from 5x1"[edit 5x2"]
cut to width 7deg splay
5mm drip groove
rebate out the bottom at the back with many passes to save trimming the door
roundover to remove sharp edges and use the sliding mitre to trim each side to to sit within the frame
whilst i found it simple and easy as i have the tools to hand and routers set up for specific tasks the carpenter who i was working with who i was in great admiration off his skills though i was a fantastic woodsmith/machinist
the point being with a selection off tools its quicker easier more efficient with a few sizes off timber you can make any size quickly

 

[Roger928]

In any case the long arbors really started to disappear after the 1974 regs came into force

The long arbours are still available. Have one in my felder machne.
Some thing I'd have expected a trained woodworker to know.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I do hundreds of those with my 270mm Makita circular saw and fence guide straight from a full stack of ply. Only lifting is done with the forklift.
Far faster and more accurate than a table saw or rail saw. One man operation.
Plus I can slice about 6 or 7 sheets at once.

Really? Often no FLT on a site and as most plunge/rail saw users are aware thin strips are awkward and error prone on guide rail saws. Stacking isn't really an option when you are using-up offcuts, etc either. BTW I was specifically referring to site environment

The long arbours are still available. Have one in my felder machne.

So what? You won't find them on many saws available in the EU, and quoting a £3k Felder really doesn't help your case one jot - I've yet to see a joiner or contractor turn up with one of them on site! I have taught wood machining in the past, so I do know the regs passably well (and note: unlike a lot of people I didn't say that dado heads are illegal) and also what manufacturers have done to ensure that they carry minimal liability

The example given by B-A shows the true versatility of a well set-up portable table saw and is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to

 

[Roger928]

Really?

Yes really.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Personally I don't see any use for table saws on site. I can do everything they do and more with my rail saws.

Funny. I thought you were saying that you could and would do that with a rail saw

 

[Roger928]

do that

Do what?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I do hundreds of those with my 270mm Makita circular saw and fence guide straight from a full stack of ply.

 

[big-all]

i have a track/rail saw and without fail its the best tool for sheet material
although having said that the 54v table saw can accommodate 610mm fully supported to the fence side off the blade so any size you like along the length off a sheet can be cut but as you need around a six foot wide by around 20ft long well supported area to cut a full sheet so the track saw is far easier
but off course you can far quicker cut smaller timbers/bits off sheet to size as the table saw has a very quick accurate[within 0.5mm ] scale on the table
i have never tried to use the track saw on timber as i have a table saw to hand but having to double up to give the track good support and being limited to 4ft without repositioning the track or adding a joiner to two sections means the table even with the need to add perhaps a support after the table means its easiest more accurate and quicker

 

[catlad]

Hi Big all
How do rate the 54v stuff are they powerful enough yet
I could do with a cordless mitre saw as its a pain working
on the roof otherwise cable's .ect

 

[big-all]

to be honest in my hands it will never have a hard life
most off my table work until now involved a 642 flip saw perminentley in table saw mode with a 712 slider for miters
so the compromise means slow adjustment and reduced accuracy or constant adjustment but by comparison the table saw
https://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product...2-54V-Xr-Flexvolt-2X6.0Ah-210Mm-Table-Saw-Kit
is so the accurate easy use may be clouding my judgment
it will happily cut to the full depth but will be near to full load so wet/heavy/ knotty timber may need a slower feed rate but thats possibly because i have fitted a 60 tooth blade for maximum "cleaness"off cuts
have noticed on one battery there is a sudden tone difference[slight power reduction] coinciding with the drop from 3to2[bar battery level indicator] but now have 5 batteries so need to try a heavy load to work out if it battery related
having said all that i assume you mean for mitering ??
i got this saw just before and would be great for 10x2s but not at 45 degrees[7x2s]
https://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product...95-18V-Xr-184Mm-Xps-Slide-Mitre-Saw-Bare-Unit
it also takes the flexvolt batteries