Clipping cables to thin metal beams?

No I ain't suggesting anything but the requirement not only lists this as an E-C-P but goes on to say "where an installation serves more than one building, the requirements shall be applied".
So after a little clarification whether not bonding would be a non-compliance?
 
Sponsored Links
No I ain't suggesting anything but the requirement not only lists this as an E-C-P ...
..but as I said is does not "list this as an E-C-P". It includes structural metalwork in a list of things that may be an extraneous-c-p (IF they satisfy the definition in Part 2) - but, just as central heating systems will not usually be extraneous-c-ps (even though they are in the list), nor does structural metalwork always have to be an extraneous-c-p because it's in that list.
... but goes on to say "where an installation serves more than one building, the requirements shall be applied".
"...to each building" [you forgot to complete the quote]. Sure, but that surely just means what it says. Things which are extraneous-c-ps (but not those which aren't) must be bonded whenever the 'enter' any building which is part of the installation - hence, if a water pipe enters both the house and an associated garage, both need appropriate bonding (possibly to different earthing systems).
So after a little clarification whether not bonding would be a non-compliance?
My view is as above.

Kind Regards, John
 
Is it penetrating the ground and if so can it introduce a potential different to the garage's earthing system ?
So is this compliant with 411.3.1.2?
PBoD - I don't really understand question.

Sure, IMO. 411.3.1.2 requires bonding of extraneous-conductive-parts, and then lists examples of things which may be extraneous-c-ps. If something is not an extraneous-c-p, per definition in Part 2 (and per ricicle's thinking), then there is no requirement to bond it, even if it's one of the things in that list.

You presumably are not, for example, suggesting that all central heating systems need main bonding (because they appear in that list in 411.3.1.2), given that (at least in domestic situations) it would be extremely rare for them to be extraneous-c-ps?
Whilst John is obviously and indisputably correct I will agree that that is not what 411.3.1.2 actually says.
It should say 'e-c-ps which can include ...' It doesn't say 'may',

Although why it gives a short list of some things is puzzling.
What about a flag-pole in the middle of the room?

It should be tested.
 
Is it penetrating the ground and if so can it introduce a potential different to the garage's earthing system ?
So is this compliant with 411.3.1.2?
PBoD - I don't really understand question.

The question is simple:
According to BS7671 requirment 411.3.1.2. By not bonding this metal structure, would this be a non-compliance?
(I assume that this regulations refers to the electrical installation, rather than the metal work or shared incoming service pipes)
 
Sponsored Links
Whilst John is obviously and indisputably correct I will agree that that is not what 411.3.1.2 actually says. It should say 'e-c-ps which can include ...' It doesn't say 'may',
Not, it doesn't say 'may', but I don't think it actually needs to, since English is not always the most unambiguous of languages. If I wrote "This requirement applies to metalclad accessories, including (i)sockets and plugs,(ii)...", I think that everyone would interpret that as meaning "sockets and plugs which are metalclad", and I hope that not many people would suggest that it meant that 'the list' was suggesting that all sockets and plugs are metalclad, and therefore acquired the requirement. Hence, I think that "extraneous-conductive parts including (say) central heating systems" is intended to mean "central heating systems which are extraneous-c-ps", not to suggest that all central heating systems are extraneous-c-ps. ... and the same for structural metalwork.
Although why it gives a short list of some things is puzzling. What about a flag-pole in the middle of the room?
To be fair, I think the list includes all the common things which 'may' be extraneous-c-ps, plus some less common ones (like central heating systems).
Whilst It should be tested.
...under as wide as possible a range of environmental conditions :)

Kind Regards, John
 
The question is simple:
According to BS7671 requirment 411.3.1.2. By not bonding this metal structure, would this be a non-compliance? (I assume that this regulations refers to the electrical installation, rather than the metal work or shared incoming service pipes)
...and the answer is equally simple ...
IF the metal structure does not qualify as an extraneous-conductive-part, then the regs do not require bonding, so the absence of bonding would not be non-compliant.

Kind Regards, John
 
There is a thread regarding getting electricity to the garage which debates a lot of things, but one of the things it doesnt mention in much detail is earthing.

My own reading suggests that as it is a fair way from the house, which is supplied with a TN−C−S (PME) it would be non trivial and non-ideal to provide a suitable bond to the house MET. Therefore the alternative is to install a earth rod at the site of the garage and make use of a TT earth system, bonding the MET of the garage CU to the garage and earth rod, terminating the SWA (earthed to the house at the supply end) into a plastic consumer unit, terminating the cable in a rubber/plastic gland without exposing the armour. All circuits to be RCD protect.

It appears there is some controversy as to which method is best when it comes to export pme earths or not, but either way, I see it advisable to have the garage bonded to earth, the risk if it is not that a live fault to the garage such as the door cutting into a cable may not cause the rdc to operate.

The garage is bolted down to a large, typically damp, concrete pad, but otherwise has no foundations.


Daniel
 
I'm with dhutch on this. Though I've had limited experience of wiring outbuildings to the main accommodation. Run SWA to the outbuilding with the armour earthed at source, then hammer in a ground spike (or two) to give you a low resistance reading.

BTW. The last time I did something like this was a new build in the sticks. The garage was a four car, with a helicopter parked inside. i.e. More than double the size of my wee abode.
 
.... but either way, I see it advisable to have the garage bonded to earth, the risk if it is not that a live fault to the garage such as the door cutting into a cable may not cause the rdc to operate.
That would be earthing, not bonding - and the CPC (if there were one) in the cable that was cut should cause an RCD to operate in that situation. However, I agree that (e.g. if there were no CPC in the cable, and the cutting didn't cause an MCB to operate) then earthing the door would make it more likely that an RCD would operate, so that the cut end of the cable would no longer be live. However, that's a pretty improbable scenario you are describing. In nearly all other situations, 'unnecessarily' (because it didn't qualify as an extraneous conductive part) connecting garage metalwork to earth would increase the risk of electric shock - albeit shocks that occurred would hopefully (but not certainly) be non-fatal in the presence of an RCD.
The garage is bolted down to a large, typically damp, concrete pad, but otherwise has no foundations.
As I've indicated, those are the situations which concern me, since it may not be possible to be sure that the metalwork would never become an extraneous-conductive part under certain environmental conditions. So, it's not simple - one might think that "if in doubt, then bond" would be 'safe' but, as I've just said, if that results in one 'unnecessarily' bonding, then the result will be an increase in the risk of electric shock (and any electric shock may prove fatal, even with an RCD). It therefore requires a careful 'balance of risks' assessment.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm with dhutch on this. Though I've had limited experience of wiring outbuildings to the main accommodation. Run SWA to the outbuilding with the armour earthed at source, then hammer in a ground spike (or two) to give you a low resistance reading.
We know that views vary but, in general, I'm inclined to agree with that approach. However, one has to realise that if one does that, one is placing total reliance for L-E fault protection on an RCD, since you won't get enough current through an earth rod to operate an MCB. Given that some people believe that RCDs are much less 'reliable' than MCBs (I'm not sure how they can know :) ), that's something to think about. Of course, if the house is also (different) TT, then there's no issue - since you're going to be totally dependent on RCDs for L-E fault protection, whatever!

Kind Regards, John
 
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Accessories_Index/Girder_Clips/index.html
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Accessories_Index/Cable_Clips/index.html[/QUOTE]I that a recomendation that they will work on thinner beams that they are specified to, have you used them for clipping to beams less than that, or is it just a link to somwhere doing almost what I wanted?

Daniel, the gauge/profile of this metalwork would be handy to know? and have fitted these to various gauges within commercial and industrial installs.
If you study the link and view the products, you will see that they vary in Profile fits between 2mm to 12mm
 
Daniel, the gauge/profile of this metalwork would be handy to know? and have fitted these to various gauges within commercial and industrial installs.
If you study the link and view the products, you will see that they vary in Profile fits between 2mm to 12mm
As I say, its w-section and about 1mm. Ive not run the verniers over it but its certainly less than 2mm.
 
As I say, its w-section and about 1mm. Ive not run the verniers over it but its certainly less than 2mm.
You could, of course, always slip in little scraps of (1-2mm thick) metal (or something) under the clips, to bring total thickness up to ≥2mm.

Kind Regards, John
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top