Company fuse.

[westie101]

Either it's DO NOT PULL THE CUT-OUT (DNOs - is it really law?) or DO NOT WORK LIVE (EAWR it is really law).

The EAWR talks about suitable training and qualification. If you are not trained to pull the main fuse and deal with anything you may find you can't do it.
As soon as that fuse is pulled you expose a live terminal (there is NO guarantee there is any form of shrouding) to make it safe with shrouding is classed as working live - and you can't do that!

Can you identify a cantark cut-out, that no one can withdraw fuses from under any circumstances (or one or two other types that are dangerous to withdraw fuses from or need special pecautions)
If you do pull the fuse and it goes wrong do you have access to a direct line to suitable people to assist you?
What is the approved method of checking polarity?
Do you have the appropriate safety equipment (in my DNO the coveralls cost about £150, never mind the gloves, the visor (there are a few approved types, do you know what they are?)

I sit and read advice on here from qualified electricians to DIYers about how to do it correctly, what they cannot do, what tests they need to do.
Yet I see qualified electricians still suggesting they can withdraw fuses or questioning why they cannot - sorry if you won't accept what you cannot do, why do you think you can advise others?

At the end of the day the main fuse belongs to the DNO, unless you have specific permission (authorisation) from DNOs what makes anyone think they are allowed to interfere with that equipment?

A particularly high risk on an overhead TT supply where the neutral is not tied to earth at the service intake and the phase and neutral might have got reversed on their way from the pole.

Interesting point, our isolation rules do not require we isolate the neutral in any circumstances.

The polarity question I mentioned above!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

is it really law?

There is a provision in the ESQCR which could easily be interpreted as making it a contravention for an unauthorised person to pull the fuse, and that contravention is made an offence by the Electricity Act.

It's not explicit though, and others here have argued that it doesn't mean that (I suspect because they have a vested interest in it not meaning that ).

Personally I am disinterested, but I do believe that the ESQCR does make it a contravention, through the following reasoning:

1. DNOs would surely want it to be made illegal if that were possible.
   
   
2. There have been a number of opportunities to make the ESQCR explicit, none of which have been taken.
   
   
3. I cannot believe that the legislators would repeatedly refuse to explicitly make interfering with the supply fuse an offence if the industry repeatedly asked.
   
   
4. All those concerned must be happy that the way the ESQCR is worded does make it an offence.

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's precisely my point.

So why isn't it a law that you should fit an isolator so we can do OUR work safely.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How does lack of an isolator stop you?

You can request that the DNO send someone to remove the fuse (and if you push it, I guess, then disconnect the N tail) so that you can work safely.

 

[westie101]

So why isn't it a law that you should fit an isolator so we can do OUR work safely

So when I joined the industry there were no such things as isolators, electricians planned their work and arranged the electricity board to come as first job to pull the main fuse, the electrician then would do his work and someone would return to restore supply later in the day (OK in those times this included a full inspection and test.
Now that can still work, but usually it is the electricity supplier that would do this, but without the inspect and test!
And this method ensures that you do the work safely

The fitting of isolators ceased in a lot of DNOs as, to be honest, they were a source of faults often by badly made connections on the customer's side. (we tended to use torque screwdrivers when pre-building them onto boards for new supplies)
(this is not to suggest we or the suppliers always get it right)

Legally the point of supply has always been the outgoing terminals of the meter, so the fitting of isolators is a grey area (though some meters included an isolator)

So if it becomes law under what circumstances should it work: -
On new supplies?
When the customer requests it?
On all existing supplies?

Should not the supplier fit them as the DNO's responsibility actually stops at the out going terminals of the cut-out


Of course then comes the question who pays! Actually that's easy - the customers will be the ones who will ultimately pay.

Another thought about removing main fuses, if they are removed and replaced by AN Other they will be unsealed, this means that it is possible to gain access to live equipment without the use of tools just by pulling the fuse out!
The chances are low but what if someone did remove that fuse (a child perhaps) and got electrocuted?

 

[sparkticus]

That's precisely my point.

So why isn't it a law that you should fit an isolator so we can do OUR work safely.

Because it would cost money with no tangible return on investment!

I have no problem leaving the fuse alone. I get irritated when I can't even get information on what fuse is fitted or if it is a legal PME. They just don't seem to have any accurate records. I work in the Bath/Bristol region and its impossible to get an accurate answer. The response is typically "we can only tell you that the service is available for PME and we would need to make an appointment to pull the fuse to tell you the rating/type"

 

[EFLImpudence]

You can request that the DNO send someone to remove the fuse

You can, indeed, request and then there's the practical world.

 

[westie101]

then there's the practical world.

Seems a lot of folk live in the practical can't be bothered to plan the job world.
It's not just in this area it's in the lets not check the ELI before starting and expect the DNO to attend on Friday afternoons to sort it when the new wiring fails it's tests

 

[DavidWard]

Ok here goes:

sparkticus and Geps: Thank you, how do I go about getting an isolator fitted is it a job for EDF.

sparkticus: I have already been in touch with LCBC last week and they will charge me £266 inc to visit at 1st fix and before I finish. They will also send in THEIR electrician (probably a local company, but they are employed by the council so it gets around the 3rd party problem) who will test the system and issue the certificates. I do not know what they would charge for a re-test but I will find out thanks. The fee covers them and their electrician but I am not sure about a retest.

I certainly won't be pulling the company fuse, large quantity of advice seriously taken on board. When I completely rewired my last house in 1990 I had a local electrician come before I started. We had Henly blocks and he showed me by pulling the company fuse out a bit you could cut the supply whilst isolating at the Henley. However I won't be doing that now thank you! The electrician then came back and checked my work when I was finished.

ban-all-sheds: Thanks for all the points. I have done a DISQ course with a certificate of competence issued. (Valid till 05/11/2015) However, this does not cover my to work under Part P. It only gives me Minimum Technical Competence, but it would cover me to work for an electrical company to continue further training, which I was going to do prior to things getting so bad. However the course covered: Design, Installation, Inspection and testing, procedures for electrical installation work in dwellings in accordance with BS7671. I learnt to test prior to work and faultfinding as well as with power off prior to going live. Then finally testing the whole system. Most of the points you raise I have knowledge of and could refer to my onsite guide and BS7671 where necessary. We used a Megger MFT1552 meter to test, I see that this has been superseded on web sites, but anyway I was going to hire one so I could run my tests as I go so hopefully the councils electrician won’t have to retest!

Unfortunately, following divorce and other personal problems as well as seeing my work disappear in the recession. I have to finish this place and get it on the market, before the bank take it away. I have a lot of work to do on the electrics, some of which is removing existing fittings and wires that have been added over the years (nearly done). The main things I have to add are a new CU and down-lighters to most areas, a cooker outlet in the kitchen, and more sockets. I have the first and second floors, with chipboard floors at second floor level and a plasterboard ceiling on both so access is no problem. On the 1st floor the floor is a floating floor over concrete so giving fire break to flat below, as a result all wiring goes up into the 1st floor ceiling. Any suggestions on down-lighters to use? (I was going to go low voltage with individual transformers). There would be about 20 standard ones and 3 in zone 1 to fit. I also want to extend the ring main into what was the bathroom on the second floor (the floor area is ok for a single ring) or would it be better to put in a split board CU and put the new ring on one side with the downstairs lighting and the existing ring with the upstairs lighting. It seems crazy to me, when I have no work to get someone in to do work that with a little help I can do myself. I think I will run out of money if I don't do it myself.

That should keep this topic alive a little longer! Thanks David.

 

[westie101]

David
If you are in Surrey your DNO will be UK Power Networks (EDF sold their interest in what were Southern, London and Eastern electricity)
They may however still be your supplier, i.e. the folk you pay your bill to.

 

[westie101]

We had Henly blocks and he showed me by pulling the company fuse out a bit you could cut the supply

That really worries me, there is a serious risk that if the fuse was inadvertently knocked whilst in this position it could make contact again.

 

[sparkticus]

Unfortunately, following divorce and other personal problems as well as seeing my work disappear in the recession. I have to finish this place and get it on the market, before the bank take it away.

Understood. been in a similar position a long time ago.

Any suggestions on down-lighters to use? (I was going to go low voltage with individual transformers). There would be about 20 standard ones and 3 in zone 1 to fit.

Use LED or CFL do not use halogen. To be honest I would never use downlights in any form for primary lighting. A nice pendant light would look great and brightly illuminate the bathroom the way it is meant to be illuminated.

I also want to extend the ring main into what was the bathroom on the second floor (the floor area is ok for a single ring) or would it be better to put in a split board CU and put the new ring on one side with the downstairs lighting and the existing ring with the upstairs lighting. It seems crazy to me, when I have no work to get someone in to do work that with a little help I can do myself. I think I will run out of money if I don't do it myself.

You must fit a split board having at least two RCDs (from a practical perspective in a domestic environment) You might consider converting the ring to radials! You would need to protect them with 20amp MCBs assuming the existing wiring/new wiring is in 2.5mm

 

[EFLImpudence]

Legally the point of supply has always been the outgoing terminals of the meter, so the fitting of isolators is a grey area

Then change the law.

(though some meters included an isolator)

Perhaps they all could.

So if it becomes law under what circumstances should it work

On fitting new meters would be a start.

Should not the supplier fit them as the DNO's responsibility actually stops at the out going terminals of the cut-out.

If the cut-outs are built to such a poor standard that they are dangerous or may fall to pieces then perhaps it should be the DNOs. They could be fited before the meter.

Of course then comes the question who pays! Actually that's easy - the customers will be the ones who will ultimately pay.

The (poor) customer pays for everything.

Another thought about removing main fuses, if they are removed and replaced by AN Other they will be unsealed

We can fit seals

, this means that it is possible to gain access to live equipment without the use of tools just by pulling the fuse out!

Side cutters are very difficult to come by.

The chances are low but what if someone did remove that fuse (a child perhaps) and got electrocuted?

We can fit seals.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Seems a lot of folk live in the practical can't be bothered to plan the job world.

I shall assume your area is very efficient.

it's in the lets not check the ELI before starting and expect the DNO to attend on Friday afternoons to sort it when the new wiring fails it's tests

Not really affected one way or the other by an isolator.

 

[Stoday]

Seems to me that the requirement for an isolator mainly occurs because the consumer's isolator is integrated with the distribution board in the form of a consumer unit. If the consumer had an isolator/switchfuse followed by a distribution board then there would not be a problem.

So why should a consumer expect a free isolator when he's cut his costs by integrating an isolator with his distribution board? Of course he should pay.

As for the point of supply, that is a matter of contract. The point of supply is declared in the contract for the provision of the supply. That could be changed by the DNO but why should they do so?