Concentration camps
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The gas chambers were never sealed...or there was no provision to exhaust the gas from them... or there was no way for the guards to release the pellets into them, or....
As stated earlier, the extermination chambers were dynamited by the SS when they deserted the camp. There is therefore no direct evidence of what they looked like when they were in operation other than a few photographs taken by the Allies and the SS during the war (See Brugioni; Get ~/gifs/krema3.gif for view of Krema III taken during the war, from the air). The construction plans do include the air extraction systems, as one readily sees (in krema3.gif and others) and the air extraction system is mentioned in many documents. Some of the ventilation openings are still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers. The plans even include the shower heads that were placed in the gas chamber to mislead the victims.
It is a sad reflection on Leuchter's integrity and ability to use logic to see that he admits the Kremas were demolished, yet continues to claim he can deduce from their current state how they looked in 1944, before they were blown up! The following is a verbatim excerpt from his cross-examination by Mr. Pearson, in the Zündel trial:
Q. Crematoria III has been demolished.
A. Um, there are still parts of Crematoruim III there, but for the most part, the roof of the alleged gas chamber has crumbled and is all lying in bits and pieces in the basement of what would have been the alleged gas chamber.
Q. So, it's no longer subterranean?
A. That's correct. There's a hole in the ground.
Q. With respect to the gas chambers at Crematorium IV and V, those are totally demolished.
A. With the exception of the foundation, yes.
Q. So, all that was there for you to examine was the foundation of the building. Is that right?
A. That is correct.
Leuchter admits that the roof of the gas chamber of Krema III was all blown up and collapsed, and that Krema IV and V are gone except for the foundation! As for Krema II, his testimony is also intriguing:
Q. So, the gas chamber facility itself is presently underground?
A. Parts of it are and parts aren't.
Q. All right. And the parts that are underground, I take it that the roof is no longer whole; is that right?
A. Um, one of the roofs is broken into several pieces but it's essentially whole.
Q. It's broken in several pieces but it's essentially whole?
A. I mean it's not fragmented.
Q. How many pieces?
A. Three, I believe. I say that only to indicate that it's not fragmented. There are large slabs left of the roof.
Q. Right. And it's collapsed.
A. It's dropped several feet. It's partially collapsed.
Q. Is there dirt over it? Is it subterranean?
A. In some places there are dirt over it and some places there's no dirt.
Q. All right. And that's with respect to Crematorium II?
A. That's correct.
Even more incredible is to see what Leuchter writes in his report:
"Evidence as to Krema function is non-existent since Krema's I oven has been completely rebuilt, Kremas II and III are partially destroyed with components missing, and Kremas IV and V are gone".
"Are gone"! Yet, he can still conjecture about how they functioned before being destroyed...
The pictures of the gas chambers in their current state appear in Pressac. They are totally demolished and there is no way a reasonable person would claim to be able to conclude anything about how they functioned before they were destroyed.
Leuchter further ridicules himself by stating that the gas chambers were never sealed and that using cyanide gas inside them would be dangerous. But, he admits that the gas was used in them (for delousing purposes, as he claims). This is absurd, of course; if they were not sealed, introducing the gas into them would be dangerous no matter what the purpose was. This obvious contradiction alone is reason enough to discard the "Leuchter report"
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-11.html[/QUOTE]
The findings were backed up by the Krakow Institute.
I guess they tell lies too?
M
mdf290
DAY ELEVEN
The Concentration Camp thread has now reached day eleven.
Water supplies have all but dried up and Joe-90 has run out of food but by careful sucking of an old sock he has been to sustain enough food to keep his epic struggle going.
It is with some regret we have to report the death of Alumni who has succumbed to organ failure due to lack of sleep.
Still the thread continues. There seems to be no end in site as both factions dig in.
Ammunition is running really low with just one unanswered question being thrown back and forward between both enemy lines.
The crowd has long since dispersed and the winning if there is to be such a thing seems only of interest to the die hard protagonists still involved in this lengthy battle of wills.
It is with note only of academic interest as the outcome of the thread will not resolve anything or bring back any of the dead.
An early suggestion of a peace initiative where both sides would agree to disagree was summarily dismissed and now the outcome has become a haze in a struggle to the last as each side holds the other in a death grip.
The atmosphere is tense and unwelcoming and no winners are in sight.
One can only wonder how long this struggle will last before an inevitable break down occurs.
Over to a synopsis by our resident psychologist Dr Sergie Fedupovit.......
The Concentration Camp thread has now reached day eleven.
Water supplies have all but dried up and Joe-90 has run out of food but by careful sucking of an old sock he has been to sustain enough food to keep his epic struggle going.
It is with some regret we have to report the death of Alumni who has succumbed to organ failure due to lack of sleep.
Still the thread continues. There seems to be no end in site as both factions dig in.
Ammunition is running really low with just one unanswered question being thrown back and forward between both enemy lines.
The crowd has long since dispersed and the winning if there is to be such a thing seems only of interest to the die hard protagonists still involved in this lengthy battle of wills.
It is with note only of academic interest as the outcome of the thread will not resolve anything or bring back any of the dead.
An early suggestion of a peace initiative where both sides would agree to disagree was summarily dismissed and now the outcome has become a haze in a struggle to the last as each side holds the other in a death grip.
The atmosphere is tense and unwelcoming and no winners are in sight.
One can only wonder how long this struggle will last before an inevitable break down occurs.
Over to a synopsis by our resident psychologist Dr Sergie Fedupovit.......
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M
mdf290
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According to you they didn't burn at all.They didn't burn fuel mate - don't be so bloody stupid. What ridiculous claims will you make to fit your argument.
Your own supporters have deserted you.
Those that died of typhus did. BTW why did they keep the typhus victims alive?
M
mdf290
According to you they didn't burn at all.They didn't burn fuel mate - don't be so bloody stupid. What ridiculous claims will you make to fit your argument.
Your own supporters have deserted you.
Those that died of typhus did. BTW why did they keep the typhus victims alive?
They didn't in the case of Ann Frank but as to the rest they were supposed to be the forced labour to build a pan european road network until the war went wrong for the Germans and they were suddenly superfluous to requirements.
M
mdf290
What happened to Anne Frank then and what good would a girl with typhus be in building a road? FFS.
You said earlier Ann Frank died of Typhus but above you said they were keeping people with Typhus alive...
No Poor ann Frank would not have been good for building roads would she..
I don't understand your anger....
You did dee the malnourished condition of the inmates when liberated didn't you...?
Why argue for the side that would do that to other humans?
What is your actual investment in this argument - what do YOU have to gain digging up history on this subject?
Was one of your ancestors executed after the trials?
or are you simply trying to do the impossible and win an argument on the internet?
Perhaps now you see what the issue is?What happened to Anne Frank then and what good would a girl with typhus be in building a road? FFS.
You said earlier Ann Frank died of Typhus but above you said they were keeping people with Typhus alive...
No Poor ann Frank would not have been good for building roads would she..
I don't understand your anger....
You did dee the malnourished condition of the inmates when liberated didn't you...?
Why argue for the side that would do that to other humans?
What is your actual investment in this argument - what do YOU have to gain digging up history on this subject?
Was one of your ancestors executed after the trials?
or are you simply trying to do the impossible and win an argument on the internet?
Every point he claims to be 'the truth' has been shot down.
He contradicts himself.
He introduces new arguments to avoid answering those he's already being challenged on.
Everyone who stands up to him is a hard wired Jewish zealot (hence that's why they have views differing to his)
etc etc.
Not the first time he's shown his neo-nazi traits and been accused of it either
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=142683&start=0
P
peaps2
The gas chambers were never sealed...or there was no provision to exhaust the gas from them... or there was no way for the guards to release the pellets into them, or....
As stated earlier, the extermination chambers were dynamited by the SS when they deserted the camp. There is therefore no direct evidence of what they looked like when they were in operation other than a few photographs taken by the Allies and the SS during the war (See Brugioni; Get ~/gifs/krema3.gif for view of Krema III taken during the war, from the air). The construction plans do include the air extraction systems, as one readily sees (in krema3.gif and others) and the air extraction system is mentioned in many documents. Some of the ventilation openings are still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers. The plans even include the shower heads that were placed in the gas chamber to mislead the victims.
It is a sad reflection on Leuchter's integrity and ability to use logic to see that he admits the Kremas were demolished, yet continues to claim he can deduce from their current state how they looked in 1944, before they were blown up! The following is a verbatim excerpt from his cross-examination by Mr. Pearson, in the Zündel trial:
Q. Crematoria III has been demolished.
A. Um, there are still parts of Crematoruim III there, but for the most part, the roof of the alleged gas chamber has crumbled and is all lying in bits and pieces in the basement of what would have been the alleged gas chamber.
Q. So, it's no longer subterranean?
A. That's correct. There's a hole in the ground.
Q. With respect to the gas chambers at Crematorium IV and V, those are totally demolished.
A. With the exception of the foundation, yes.
Q. So, all that was there for you to examine was the foundation of the building. Is that right?
A. That is correct.
Leuchter admits that the roof of the gas chamber of Krema III was all blown up and collapsed, and that Krema IV and V are gone except for the foundation! As for Krema II, his testimony is also intriguing:
Q. So, the gas chamber facility itself is presently underground?
A. Parts of it are and parts aren't.
Q. All right. And the parts that are underground, I take it that the roof is no longer whole; is that right?
A. Um, one of the roofs is broken into several pieces but it's essentially whole.
Q. It's broken in several pieces but it's essentially whole?
A. I mean it's not fragmented.
Q. How many pieces?
A. Three, I believe. I say that only to indicate that it's not fragmented. There are large slabs left of the roof.
Q. Right. And it's collapsed.
A. It's dropped several feet. It's partially collapsed.
Q. Is there dirt over it? Is it subterranean?
A. In some places there are dirt over it and some places there's no dirt.
Q. All right. And that's with respect to Crematorium II?
A. That's correct.
Even more incredible is to see what Leuchter writes in his report:
"Evidence as to Krema function is non-existent since Krema's I oven has been completely rebuilt, Kremas II and III are partially destroyed with components missing, and Kremas IV and V are gone".
"Are gone"! Yet, he can still conjecture about how they functioned before being destroyed...
The pictures of the gas chambers in their current state appear in Pressac. They are totally demolished and there is no way a reasonable person would claim to be able to conclude anything about how they functioned before they were destroyed.
Leuchter further ridicules himself by stating that the gas chambers were never sealed and that using cyanide gas inside them would be dangerous. But, he admits that the gas was used in them (for delousing purposes, as he claims). This is absurd, of course; if they were not sealed, introducing the gas into them would be dangerous no matter what the purpose was. This obvious contradiction alone is reason enough to discard the "Leuchter report"
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-11.html[/QUOTE]
The findings were backed up by the Krakow Institute.
I guess they tell lies too?
MMmm, did they..?
INSTITUTE OF FORENSIC RESEARCH
In the name of Prof. Dr. Jan Sehn, Krakow
Division of Forensic Toxicology
Krakow, 24 Sept. 1990
Westerplatte 9 / Code 31-033
Tel. 505-44, 592-24, 287-50
Telex 0325213 eksad ...
The hydrocyanic acid (HCN) that is released from the Zyklon B
preparation is a liquid with a boiling point of about 27 degrees
Celsius. It has an acidic character, and therefore forms
compounds with metallic salts, which are known as cyanides. The
salts of alkaline metals (such as sodium and potassium) are
water soluble.
Hydrocyanic acid is a very weak acid, and accordingly its salts
dissolve easily in stronger acids. Even carbonic acid, which is
formed as a reaction of carbon dioxide with water, will dissolve
ferro-cyanide.
Stronger acids, such as sulfuric acids, easily dissolve the
cyanides. The compounds of cyanide ions with heavy metals are
longer lasting. This includes the already mentioned Prussian
blue, although this will also slowly dissolve in an acidic
environment.
Therefore, one can hardly assume that traces of cyanic compounds
could still be detected in construction materials (plaster,
brick) after 45 years, after being subjected to the weather and
the elements (rain, acid oxides, especially sulfuric and
nitrogen oxides). More reliable would be the analysis of wall
plaster [samples] from closed rooms which were not subject to
weather and the elements (including acid rain).
The discovery of hydrocyanic acid compounds in samples of
material which had been subject to the elements can only be
accidental.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/krakow-institu.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/ihr-v12n4-footnotes.html
Posted to UseNet on March 27, 1993, by Dan Gannon:
>From The Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 12, Number 4 (Winter 1992-93):
The Leuchter Report Vindicated:
A Response to J.-C. Pressac's Critique
Paul Grubach
[footnotes]
In early 1988, American execution hardware expert Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., carried out the first-ever forensic investigation of the alleged extermination gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. His sensational conclusion--that these structures were never used as gas chambers to kill people--set off an international controversy that is still continuing. In a detailed report, commonly referred to simply as The Leuchter Report, the gas chamber specialist summed up the result of his investigation: ^1
After a study of the available literature, examination and evaluation of the existing facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, with expert knowledge of the design criteria for gas chamber operation, an investigation of crematory technology and an inspection of modern crematories, the author finds no evidence that any of the facilities normally alleged to be execution gas chambers were ever used as such, and finds, further, that because of the design and fabrication of these facilities, they could not have been utilized for execution gas chambers.
Not suprisingly, indignant defenders of the orthodox Holocaust extermination story have tried frantically to discredit Leuchter and refute his findings. Undoubtedly the most ambitious effort to impeach The Leuchter Report on scientific and technical grounds consists of two articles by French pharmacist Jean-Claude Pressac in a book sponsored by "Nazi-hunter" Beate Klarsfeld, and grandiloquently titled Truth Prevails: Demolishing Holocaust Denial: The End of the Leuchter Report. ^2 [A review of Truth Prevails, which deals more generally with the book's non-scientific criticisms of Leuchter, is published elsewhere in this issue of the Journal. --Editor.]
In Truth Prevails, Pressac is described as "one of the world's rare research specialists in gas chamber extermination technique. He is not a Jew and nearly became a 'revisionist'." (p. 29) At the conclusion of his essay "The Deficiencies and Inconsistencies of 'The Leuchter Report'," Pressac pronounces stern judgement on The Leuchter Report:
...Leuchter is the victim of his own errors: layout errors, location errors, measurement errors, drawing errors, methodology errors and historical errors. Based on fake knowledge, inducing fake reasoning and leading to false interpretations, "The Leuchter Report" is inadmissible because it was produced in illegal conditions; because it overlooks the most basic historical data; because it is scuttled by gross errors of calculation, drawing and location; and because it is suspect of falsification. "The Leuchter Report" lands in the cesspool of pretentious human folly. (p. 55)
As this article will show, Pressac, by dismissing The Leuchter Report's scientific and technical method so intemperately, has cast a verbal boomerang that returns to strike its author.
I
When Leuchter took forensic samples of brick, mortar and sediment from the alleged extermination "gas chambers" in Auschwitz-Birkenau, as well as a control sample from a camp delousing facility, he wore protective gear. Pressac ridicules him for this:
To prevent his "precious" samples from being polluted during their removal, Leuchter and his assistant...had agreed to wear protective surgical gloves and masks. Since the analyses to be done on the samples were chemical and not bacteriological in nature, this was a perfectly ludicrous and totally useless precaution. (p. 62)
Pressac is ignorant of the real reason why Leuchter and company wore protective masks and gloves. Potassium cyanide, a highly poisonous solid, ^3 is found in the walls of some of the facilities under study. ^4 As Du Pont chemists have pointed out: "Wear an approved dust respirator when there is danger of inhaling cyanide dust...Wear protective gloves when handling solid cyanide." ^5 Thus, Leuchter and his team showed good sense by wearing protective gear when extracting the samples.
Leuchter stored his samples in cool, damp, and sunlight free locations. But Pressac writes: "Since Leuchter placed the samples in transparent plastic bags, it is difficult to accept his 'sunlight free locations' claim." (p. 62) In fact, although Leuchter first placed the samples in transparent bags, he then transported them to America in closed, sunlight-free suitcases. ^6 The gas chamber expert wrote: "We boarded the Polish airline plane after clearing customs--my suitcase containing twenty pounds of forbidden samples, fortunately none of which was found." ^7
Leuchter is faulted for allegedly making misleading descriptions of the specimens. In Pressac's words:
Thirty-one samples...were identified by laboratory analysis...as coming from "brick"--an inexact generalization. If two-thirds really are brick fragments, either pure or mixed with a bit of mortar, the rest are composed of lime mortar or sometimes of pure cement (as in the case of two or three samples). This abusive generalization leads one to have a major reservation about the very nature of the samples Leuchter took. Either Leuchter was mistaken in his assessment of the substratum, or the laboratory made an error. (p. 61)
In one part of his report, Leuchter wrote: "...forensic samples of brick, mortar, concrete and sediment were selectively taken from sites in Poland." ^8 In a letter to Alpha Analytical Laboratories (Ashland, Massachusetts), the laboratory which analyzed the samples, Leuchter wrote: "Samples No. 1 through No. 11; Samples No. 13 through No. 32. Brick, mortar and sediment. Cyanate content." ^9 Clearly, he did not use the "inexact generalization" of "brick" to characterize the samples. ^10
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/ihr-v12n4.html
Maybe you should read up a little more.
I would rather believe the statements made by the men survivors who dragged the bodies from the chambers and piled them on the burning pits than 'facts' on this thread.
Millions died in the camps..does it really matter how many millions? A few hundred would have been bad enough.
Millions died in the camps..does it really matter how many millions? A few hundred would have been bad enough.
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