Consumer unit certification rip-off?

[JohnW2]

Crossed in the post and as we seemed to be saying something similar I didn't bother commenting.

Fair enough, but there seemed to be one big difference between what we were saying.

We have both agreed with RF's list of (the substantial) overheads, and we have both indicated (you in more detail than me) that he could, in fact, have included (and 'costed') plenty more things.

However, since you started your post with "Actually I don't think RF is too far off the mark... ", I thought (probably wrongly, again!) that you were supporting RF's (probably tongue-in-cheek!) implication that the magnitude of all the totted-up overheads might be used as an argument for justifying the 'cost' of supplying a bit of paper! In contrast, I pointed out that those overheads (no matter how large) will already have been accounted for in his 'hourly rate'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[HERTS P&D]

John, go to bed.

Andy

 

[niceboy]

Really interesting discussion, guys. I'm still a little hazy about about the key question - is £150 per certificate the electrician's charge or is it a fee charged by the council or whatever for registering the job? Is any such charge imposed?

If it is all electrician's charge, I must say it seems excessive. I absolutely get the argument about the cost of setting up as a business and maintaining qualifications etc, but these are infrastructure costs. When I take the car for repair there are two columns in the bill - materials and labour. The latter must cover the general costs of everything involved in running the business. The former pays for components needed to carry out that particular job.

I am happy to pay sparky at labour rates for the time he's spent filling out and registering any documents. But I do resent being told a simple task will cost hundreds with the veiled threat of "statutory obligations" and "It's the law". That seems to be what I'm facing here. Does that make sense?

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is irrelevant.

You have already had an EICR for which you owe £119.

So, he has said he will replace the CU and issue certificates for another £581 which is quite reasonable.

Ask him if he would just replace the CU for £281 without the certificates. If he says no, then it will be obvious that the certificates do not actually cost £300, won't it?

 

[EFLImpudence]

A 'registered' electrician who can self-certify (self-notify) has to give you the EIC and Schedule of Inspections and Schedule of Test Results which obviously cost him a bit of time but it is part of the job. Then he will have to pay his registration body a fiver at most (unless it has increased a lot since I retired) to report the job to them after which it is they who send you the Certificate of Compliance so that costs him nothing.

 

[SUNRAY]

My last two for little one bed flats. Materials <£200, labour £250 inc certs. Total £225 each. This year.

Including changing the shower cable and switch.

I've asked for a breakdown of the costing, I have to say this was done by the contract manager at one of the companies I work for so it's very likely mates rates.
I supplied and paid for the CU's, 6mm² replacement T&E and pull switch for shower, several accessories, stuffing glands etc.
Flat 1; EICR, replace CU - 5 circuits, including replacing shower circuit [I did most of running in new cable and all in bathroom, I replaced some accessories.

Flat 2; EICR, replace CU - 4 circuits, I replaced 2 broken switches.

I worked as his gofor. Total time on site for us, including me sourcing, collecting and fitting replacement front door handles for one property.

His boss charged £30 per property for the paperwork through the system, total charge for being on site for nearly 6 hours - £210 + VAT = £252

All parts £185

Total $437 for 2 flats

Obviousely my time didn't carry a cost and I'd normally expect to pay more than £25 per hour for a proper electrician, let's say £35 + £15 for the assistant x 6 = £300 labour + £60 in this instance + £72 vat = £432 plus materials. For the EICR and 'repairs' to be done in just one visit and not 2.
These were generally known repairs to be done so almost everything had been purchased in advance. The unexpected repairs being a 20DP switch for immersion and ceiling rose which both fell apart when removed for tests and with a wholesaler only ½mile away didn't affect the time on site.

There were no travel costs nor parking costs which in the smoke can easily add £50 or more per visit.

 

[SUNRAY]

I've never been involved with 'registering' So I have no idea what the schemes costs are but the companies 'standard processing cost plus any fee' seems to be £30 + VAT.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

£700 doesn't seem unreasonable given the skills required and the added 'London Tax'
I work in telecoms, we won't take on any new customers in London. It's getting harder to drive to sites without having to pay the 'how dare you drive in London' tax. Then there's the abolition of roads in favour of cycle lanes, can't drive my van through the Rotherhithe tunnel (even though its on LPG), average travel time of 15 minutes per mile, add on parking charges in some areas of up to £10 per hour (if you can get a space) and costs start adding up.

F*** London

Yes I totally agree but I would say F*** the people who make such policies.......Its not the Londoners, its the idiots who run for the mayor

 

[Keithmac]

For me to issue the certificate for a consumer unit replacement I have to buy a tester (£1000) and then go on an inspection and testing course (£1350) and lose 7 days work whilst attending the course (£2100) then I need to join a competent person scheme (£630) and lose another days work for the site assessment (£300). Now I’m ready to spend time actually testing and entering the results into my iPad (£800) using the certification software (£75) then I need to insure my kit, buy regs, guidance notes, etc etc

Come to think of it £150 sounds pretty cheap...

It's like me, £20,000 in tools, work pay subscriptions for diagnostic kit etc and someone moans that the job costs to much.

We don't price match, have more than enough customers who appreciate a proper job for a reasonable price.

 

[JohnW2]

It's like me, £20,000 in tools, work pay subscriptions for diagnostic kit etc and someone moans that the job costs to much.

You may be missing the point - I don't think that £700 for a CU replacement in London is particularly exorbitant or unreasonable - but the suggestion that, of that total, £150 is for the EIC and, worse, £150 is for the Compliance Certificate (which the electrician doesn't provide, anyway!) is totally ridiculous!

As for the overheads, as I've said, they are the reason why the hourly rate charged to customers is considerably more than the 'income' of the electrician. If you do, say 40 hours per week for 40-45 weeks per year, your £20,000 pa will be represented by about £12 of the hourly rate you charge customers.

Kind Regards, John

 

[niceboy]

An update, if anyone is interested. I paid the agency who'd sent Sparky and in return they emailed the ECIR certificate. Amazed to see it had passed! They told me it had failed and would need £700 remedial work (including £300 for new certification). He had marked the RCD tick box simply N/A and the whole installation classed as "satisfactory". So it seems an RCD is not obligatory even in a rented flat. However it occurs to me that's it's worth getting the CU changed anyway because if a fuse blows and the tenant is helpless, I might end up having to call out an electrician to replace that little piece of wire (the flat is too far away from where I live). That said, two of the old fuses have already been replaced with plug-in MCBs.

 

[JohnW2]

An update, if anyone is interested. I paid the agency who'd sent Sparky and in return they emailed the ECIR certificate. Amazed to see it had passed! They told me it had failed and would need £700 remedial work (including £300 for new certification). He had marked the RCD tick box simply N/A and the whole installation classed as "satisfactory". So it seems an RCD is not obligatory even in a rented flat.

I'm pleased for you, but I'm a little surprised that an installation (whether rented or not) with no RCDs at all (is that the situation) should 'pass' an EICR!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

but I'm a little surprised that an installation (whether rented or not) with no RCDs at all (is that the situation) should 'pass' an EICR!

Surprised maybe, with what we have heard since PRS inspections started, but is that not how it should be - electrically speaking rather than morally?

 

[JohnW2]

Surprised maybe, with what we have heard since PRS inspections started, but is that not how it should be - electrically speaking rather than morally?

Yes, that's why I was "a little surprised".

As for the rest, as we know, "opinions vary" - and the unfortunate thing (now, particularly for landlords) is that it is 'opinions' which determine how EICRs are coded.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I'm pleased for you, but I'm a little surprised that an installation (whether rented or not) with no RCDs at all (is that the situation) should 'pass' an EICR!

Well haven't some of us argued that providing all the other conditions are met (such as any required supplementary bonding) then lack of RCD could be just a C3. If there's no C2 or C1 items then that would make the installation satisfactory.
The OP would probably be wise to consider an upgrade at some point - not least because sooner or later he's going to call someone in to an electrical problem, and right or not the electrician might turn round and "insist" that the CU needs upgrading "right now" or he can't even look at correcting the fault. And if that happens, he could have tenants without essential services and so not have the luxury of time for asking for advice or getting a second quote. "Distress purchases" are great for the vendor - as the buyer has much less room for manoeuvre