Corgi

[Softus]

Could the powers here pin a suitable note at the top of the plumbing/heating forum to the effect of the following:

BobProperty, I'm not sure why you've invented some new words to replace those in the SI, but yours are actually wrong, viz:

Gas work must be carried out by competent persons.

This is humourously ambiguous, as per the old joke based on the London Underground direction: "Dogs must be carried". For example, one interpretation (a pedant would say the only interpretation) of your sentence is that competent persons must spend every available minute of their lives carrying out gas work.

If you do any gas work for anyone you have to be registered with CORGI.

Actually not true. According to the wording of the SI, You can do gas work for someone else, as long as it is a favour and not part of a business activity.

If you do your own gas work in your own home and nothing goes wrong, you will get away with it (except for * below)

Misleading - this implies that there is something to "get away with". However, no law would be broken.

If it goes wrong you will have to get someone to put it right and / or your gas will be cut off.
You may be charged under Health and Safety rules. You will not get away in court by claiming competence unless you are registered with CORGI as that is the de facto definition of being competent.
Your insurer will not be paying out for any damage caused.

You're making quite a few claims here - do you have some reason for believing all this? For example, are you versed in the relevant case law and thereby rich in examples of precedent?

* When House Information Packs for selling houses come in, or if anyone spots it before hand, you will have a problem selling your house. Expect either several hundred if not thousands being knocked off its value or having to pay out the same to prove that it's OK before you sell it.

I can see that you were really on a roll by this point - did you seriously imagine the moderator making a sticky topic out of this alarmist claptrap?

 

[Softus]

He may have been DIYing, but he wasnt doing it for himself. I think this gets back to what Joe-90 was saying

How can it be that so many words are being written about a subject that is clearly and unambiguously defined, in writing, in a Statutory Instrument made and published by a Secretary of State? It doesn't matter what joe-90 "says", or what I say, or what anyone else says - the law is clear, if you read it. If you don't read it, then don't be surprised when you're accused of breaking it.

 

[Softus]

It doesn't matter whether you are Corgi or not if you are incompetent.

This is correct.

Doing the job wrong proves anyone incompetent...

This is incorrect. All professionals make mistakes, and occasionally they don't spot them themselves. This does not make them incompetent, it makes them human.

...regardless of whether they belong to a trade association

CORGI is not a trade association; it's a company upon which has been conferred the duty of regulating the membership of "a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive" within the context of paragraph (3) of section 3 of SI 1998:2451. Currently, CORGI is the only such company.

 

[Softus]

Very intelligent.

And so am I

 

[Softus]

Cobblers.

Shoe menders are not automatically members of CORGI.

British Gas engineers are Corgi in their working hours but not out of them. Are you saying that they become incompetent on the weekends?

Effectively that is the case. British Gas is the CORGI member, not the individual engineers. Therefore, when not involved in carrying out gas work for his/her employer, a British Gas employee cannot claim to be competent on the grounds of CORGI membership. They can, however, claim to be de-facto competent and carry out gas work in the way that any other lay person can do.

However, it would not be surprising if a court took a black view of a gas engineer who made a mistake befitting the skill and experience of a lay person...

 

[Softus]

This is where I got my unadulterated,dunce like stupidity from.

FYI, it's grammatically incorrect to end an English sentence with a preposition. In the meantime, I can't read the writing on those images. Do you have any references and/or Hyperlinks?

Can you show me where it states that an unqualified, non corgi, diy householder can do gas fitting in his own home WITHout building control.

I cannot. Why did you think I would be able to do that?

Which was my original query as I thought you were somehow an authority on gas works

Think competent Gas person is one who pays his /her dues to corgi and so is allowed to fill in the benchmark with a corgi number. Dont matter then if you blow house up as long as you can write lololol.

Can you show me where I claimed or implied to be an authority on gas works? It would also be interesting to know why you think we need any authority other than the British Government.

 

[Softus]

Can't find the plastic gas pipe story. But did come across this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4039353.stm
Bet he thought he was competent too.

Do you realise that the perpitrators were convicted of manslaughter, not incompetence (which is not a crime)?

 

[BobProperty]

Could the powers here pin a suitable note at the top of the plumbing/heating forum to the effect of the following:

BobProperty, I'm not sure why you've invented some new words to replace those in the SI, but yours are actually wrong, viz:

Gas work must be carried out by competent persons.

This is humourously ambiguous, as per the old joke based on the London Underground direction: "Dogs must be carried". For example, one interpretation (a pedant would say the only interpretation) of your sentence is that competent persons must spend every available minute of their lives carrying out gas work.

If you do any gas work for anyone you have to be registered with CORGI.

Actually not true. According to the wording of the SI, You can do gas work for someone else, as long as it is a favour and not part of a business activity.

If you do your own gas work in your own home and nothing goes wrong, you will get away with it (except for * below)

Misleading - this implies that there is something to "get away with". However, no law would be broken.

If it goes wrong you will have to get someone to put it right and / or your gas will be cut off.
You may be charged under Health and Safety rules. You will not get away in court by claiming competence unless you are registered with CORGI as that is the de facto definition of being competent.
Your insurer will not be paying out for any damage caused.

You're making quite a few claims here - do you have some reason for believing all this? For example, are you versed in the relevant case law and thereby rich in examples of precedent?

* When House Information Packs for selling houses come in, or if anyone spots it before hand, you will have a problem selling your house. Expect either several hundred if not thousands being knocked off its value or having to pay out the same to prove that it's OK before you sell it.

I can see that you were really on a roll by this point - did you seriously imagine the moderator making a sticky topic out of this alarmist claptrap?

1. "Gas work must be carried out by competent persons." I was trying to make it simpler. It appeared it needed to be for some people. I'm happy to stick with "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so." if you are. And, as you say, only a pedant would make the interpretation you have of my comment.
2. So long as "a favour" is not payment in kind you are OK then? I think you are stretching a point. Would it be OK if the favour was not returned, but if the favour was returned that would be payment in kind and therefore a business transaction, or am I being pedantic?
3. "alarmist claptrap" Hmm! Either when someone sells a house with, say, GCH it will have an installation certificate or it won't. It will be expected to be in a Home Information Pack. If it isn't I would ask why. If I am told it is because the vendor installed it himself, I will ask for it to be thoroughly checked by a competent person and the cost of that check and the cost of any repairs will be negotiated off the price of the house. Equally, the vendor's solicitor and the estate agent will be made aware of the defect. Maybe someone would be happy to buy such a house. Maybe. Maybe they could get a mortgage and insurance. We await HIP implementation and all the joy it will bring.

 

[BobProperty]

Can't find the plastic gas pipe story. But did come across this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4039353.stm
Bet he thought he was competent too.

Do you realise that the perpitrators were convicted of manslaughter, not incompetence (which is not a crime)?

That's why I was looking for the plastic gas pipe one, because I think he was convicted on the basis of H&S breaches.

To draw an interesting analysis: If I were to run over someone in my car and kill them I would be charged with causing death by dangerous driving not driving incompetently. I do have a document that says I am competent to drive, i.e. a driving license. Were I to have my license revoked, I would still be a competent driver. Or would I?

 

[Softus]

BobProperty, thank you for your placid response to my bark.

1. "Gas work must be carried out by competent persons." I was trying to make it simpler. It appeared it needed to be for some people. I'm happy to stick with "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so." if you are. And, as you say, only a pedant would make the interpretation you have of my comment.

2. So long as "a favour" is not payment in kind you are OK then? I think you are stretching a point. Would it be OK if the favour was not returned, but if the favour was returned that would be payment in kind and therefore a business transaction, or am I being pedantic?

Not pedantic, just precise, and laudibly so.

3. "alarmist claptrap" Hmm! Either when someone sells a house with, say, GCH it will have an installation certificate or it won't. It will be expected to be in a Home Information Pack. If it isn't I would ask why. If I am told it is because the vendor installed it himself, I will ask for it to be thoroughly checked by a competent person and the cost of that check and the cost of any repairs will be negotiated off the price of the house. Equally, the vendor's solicitor and the estate agent will be made aware of the defect. Maybe someone would be happy to buy such a house. Maybe. Maybe they could get a mortgage and insurance. We await HIP implementation and all the joy it will bring.

I think it's somewhere deep in the British psyche to overstate problems before they happen. For example, in late November / early December we were all set for the worst countrywide snowfall in living memory, with Halfords ordering in extra snowchains by the pallet load. And even before the cause of the Buncefield fire is fully understood, and the consequent risk of a recurrence even faintly quantifiable, the Fire Fighters' union was promising a run of utter disasters caused the alleged ill-preparedness of the Hertfordshire force. As a nation we just love doom-mongering, and, despite your obviously rational demeanor, I believe you joined in with what is arguably the nation's second favourite sport.

As you say, we will find out.

 

[Softus]

That's why I was looking for the plastic gas pipe one, because I think he was convicted on the basis of H&S breaches.

Sincerely hope you can find it - I'm interested.

To draw an interesting analysis: If I were to run over someone in my car and kill them I would be charged with causing death by dangerous driving not driving incompetently. I do have a document that says I am competent to drive, i.e. a driving license. Were I to have my license revoked, I would still be a competent driver. Or would I?

An exceedingly interesting postulate.

I believe that the test of the relatively lowly crime of "driving without due care and attention" is whether or not a "reasonable and prudent driver" could have prevented the incident from which the charge arises. Extrapolating this, in the temporary absense of further information about "death by dangerous", I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a court would deem someone incompetent, as a driver, if his/her license were revoked. Moreover, it's increasingly common practice for such a driver to have to re-prove their competence by taking the current driving test.

However, I'm now standing at the cliff-edge of my knowledge about the Road Traffic Act and the Road Traffic Offenders Act, so it's time for me to shut up.

 

[BobProperty]

I have read through this all again and the one further point of note is that the wording in that huge picture of a leaflet someone posted implies that you need to notify Building Control if you want to move a gas boiler or fire. I say implies as it says "will the Building Regulations apply? All Gas appliances: YES" but goes on to say that if you employ a "CORGI registered installer...you will not need to involve a Building Control Service" Therefore, it would appear that should you be doing some DIY gas fire moving you will "need to involve a Building Control Service". This is a situation I have not heard about before concerning this argument. Does this mean that the DIY gas fire mover needs to notify Building Control and presumably after they have checked it, and found it to be safe, it will be deemed satisfactory and they will issue a certificate?

If anyone wants to read a similar discussion and can't get to sleep tonight then I recommend http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?forumID=25&threadID=4591&messageID=45062#45062
And Softus, I want to be a property developer when I'm older, so I'm just practicing negotiating down the prices of houses.

 

[confidentincompetent]

Can you show me where it states that an unqualified, non corgi, diy householder can do gas fitting in his own home WITHout building control.

I cannot. Why did you think I would be able to do that?



Can you show me where I claimed or implied to be an authority on gas works? It would also be interesting to know why you think we need any authority other than the British Government.

Err well thats answered all my thoughts on this. Think you should read up latest Gas regs Jan 2005 though before you assume the responsibility of advising people with gas queries as you seem to be quoting 1998 regs,
T/c

 

[Softus]

Think you should read up latest Gas regs Jan 2005 though before you assume the responsibility of advising people with gas queries as you seem to be quoting 1998 regs

If I haven't read the up to date SI, then I can easily put that right, but I have never misled anyone over the edition of the Gas Regulations that I have read and have been quoting, viz:

...then they are in direct conravention of SI 1998:2451, and...

Whereas...

I can only quote what I read from adverts in paper

and

I have'nt bothered looking on odpm...

and

The one I have just now was printed in 203.

So, until you sought out and read the latest SI, you were not talking with any knowledge or authority. However, I re-iterate:

Can you show me where I claimed or implied to be an authority on gas works?

 

[Softus]

...but goes on to say that if you employ a "CORGI registered installer...you will not need to involve a Building Control Service" Therefore, it would appear that should you be doing some DIY gas fire moving you will "need to involve a Building Control Service". This is a situation I have not heard about before concerning this argument. Does this mean that the DIY gas fire mover needs to notify Building Control and presumably after they have checked it, and found it to be safe, it will be deemed satisfactory and they will issue a certificate?

IMHO the answer to that is "yes". This is analogous to the fresh Part P influence on electrical work, whereby a DIY electrician, or tradesperson, can notify their LABC and expect an inspection and certificate when the work is deemed to be complete and satisfactory. In practise, getting the LABC to provide and pay for the testing has yet to become a universally successful outcome.

...I want to be a property developer when I'm older, so I'm just practicing negotiating down the prices of houses.

I wish you the very best of luck; most sincerely.