Could Russia hang on a bit till we get the right diversity to fight them

[JohnD]

To recruit more they need to make it more appealing for that type of group. Which is a hard slog, especially for .....

...an army which makes outsiders unwelcome.

"The majority of women in the British Armed Forces said they have been bullied, harassed and discriminated against.

A government inquiry into women in the armed forces heard traumatising "horror stories" that painted "a difficult picture of women in the military".

An almost unprecedented number of current and former serving women took part in the inquiry - 4,200 women (9% of the female military population)."


"A former paratrooper endured racial abuse and described racism as "prevalent" in his battalion, an employment tribunal heard.

Hani Gue told the tribunal he saw Nazi, Confederate and SS flags and photographs of Adolf Hitler displayed in accommodation at Colchester.
Mr Gue and colleague L/Cpl Nkululeko Zulu have taken the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to a tribunal alleging they suffered racial discrimination."



"When David Nkomo joined the Army in 2009 he was full of ambition. Awarded best recruit when he passed out of training age 23, he served one tour in Afghanistan with the Rifles. But four years later the career he had hoped for was over because he says he could no longer tolerate the racial harassment he'd been subjected to.

"I packed my bags and said I'm leaving. Getting out of the Army. I don't want to be here."

Regularly called "Black Dave" by his unit, to distinguish him from another Dave in the company, he says dark humour was a part of army culture.
"If it's just banter, it's just banter. I'll probably laugh at it 90% of the time," he says.

But while he tolerated the nickname, he says his experiences of discrimination went beyond casual banter to racial abuse by other soldiers. He says it went up the ranks and when he tried to raise his concerns, it made things worse.
"That's why a lot of people don't want to talk, because if you talk, your career is screwed."

 

[JohnD]

"A former soldier has revealed how racism was frequently "brushed under the carpet" in the British Army and how he was often subjected to the n-word.

Joseph Higgins spent more than six years proudly serving his country in the Royal Artillery Regiment, including on the frontline in Afghanistan.

He said the abuse began soon after he joined his regiment and he quickly realised there was "racism all over the British Army."

A lot of people mentioned the n-word to me. Some people thought that was a joke saying it.

When Joseph tried to report the abuse he said was was ignored by his commanding officers.

There were examples of systemic racism including a Caribbean officer who was accused of smoking drugs. Officers responded by testing every black soldier and only one white soldier.

Every single black person on that drug test passed and I was angry and hurt and I went to senior staff and said am I going to get an apology now? I was told just 'leave it out' and just go and eat my food."

 

[Justin Passing]

Why should a black man or woman or non binary, gay, lesbian, queer, him, her...

Get paid more than me for the same job done to the same standard?

(Like wise I don't agree with it the other way either men shouldn't get paid more than women etc)

To recruit more they need to make it more appealing for that type of group. Which is a hard slog, especially for minority groups who genuinely wouldn't risk there lives for queen and country as they do not believe in Britain, they're all concerned with the bad stuff we done 300 +years ago,

The British army also doesn't have a great record in the way they treat minority groups (Gurkhas for example)

They have to sort out their priorities. If they decide they want to get more of certain groups to apply, then attract them. When they start, they're being trained, so they aren't "getting paid more for doing the same job" anyway.. You obviously wanted to jump to your mantra without reading what I wrote.

"To recruit more they need to make it more appealing for that type of group." you wrote. EXACTLY. That's what I'm saying. How are you going to do that - make life easier for them, more cake?? Are you maybe going to be less unpleasant, to the people you haven't got??
It's military FFS, write the rules down and crack down on the behaviour you don't want, at all levels.
Minority groups will always get picked on. Managers manage it, they don't "put up" with it.

How you decide that you want more of which group is an entirely different matter. I can see that it's possibly a healthy ambition. Things tend to stay as they are because of prejudice. If you establish more of a balance it would possibly persist and you wouldn't need the incentives.

 

[Justin Passing]

"A former soldier has revealed how racism was frequently "brushed under the carpet" in the British Army and how he was often subjected to the n-word.

Joseph Higgins spent more than six years proudly serving his country in the Royal Artillery Regiment, including on the frontline in Afghanistan.

He said the abuse began soon after he joined his regiment and he quickly realised there was "racism all over the British Army."

A lot of people mentioned the n-word to me. Some people thought that was a joke saying it.

When Joseph tried to report the abuse he said was was ignored by his commanding officers.

There were examples of systemic racism including a Caribbean officer who was accused of smoking drugs. Officers responded by testing every black soldier and only one white soldier.

Every single black person on that drug test passed and I was angry and hurt and I went to senior staff and said am I going to get an apology now? I was told just 'leave it out' and just go and eat my food."

Then the snivelling little incompetent shíts of commanding officers should be punished.
If there's a rumour about Carribeans smoking drugs then ideally everyone should have been tested, if not, there are other ways to deal with it. If someone is going to be "angry and hurt" at a bit of clumsy treatment, then maybe the army's not the place for him. How's he going to react if he takes a bullet? Terribly cross?

 

[Pat ex]

Ha Ha HAaaa ... you really must try harder

Let me remind you, I said this:

Has it been discovered that the forces are biased against employing women and/or people from ethnic minorities?

And you've posted links about people already employed by the forces that, yes, have what may indeed be valid concerns about how they're treated.

However, they're already employed, so that indicates there might not be bias against employing them in the first place.

Must try harder

Do you think that people from ethnic minorities and women do not read the news?
Do you think that these people do not consider the reputation of the armed forces when considering a career?
I'm sure that the armed forces welcome women and ethnic minorities; The problem is they haven't dealt with the prejudice demonstrated against them... yet.

 

[noseall]

I’d be more worried how fragile our armed forces are, if we are having to delay operations because of diversity recruitment delays.
Pathetic.

 

[Odds]

Then the snivelling little incompetent shíts of commanding officers should be punished.
If there's a rumour about Carribeans smoking drugs then ideally everyone should have been tested, if not, there are other ways to deal with it. If someone is going to be "angry and hurt" at a bit of clumsy treatment, then maybe the army's not the place for him. How's he going to react if he takes a bullet? Terribly cross?

This is called Institutionalised Racism these days, and there's one thing to be singled out for 'banter' and quite a different matter to do so on the basis of colour or creed. If a person joins the army then i presume they understand the call to arms could be made at any time during their service and will be expected to 'take a bullet' for Queen and Country like any other member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces.
I'll remind you the last person to be awarded the Victoria Cross was Private Beharry - go ask him how he reacted to 'taking a bullet'.

 

[IT Minion]

The forces are made up of the country they serve (and a huge lump from the commonwealth). And a depressing percentage of the UK's population are still racist arseholes, just look at football crowds. In the forces young people are put into a hierarchical organisation where a level of obedience and conformity is required. The saying that a few bad apples can ruin the barrel has never been truer. It's an organisation where racism will be easy to spread and hard to challenge.

So of course there's going to be racism. They need to work hard to keep it suppressed. Clearly they haven't in all cases. Perhaps the RAFs approach will help.

 

[ajohn]

Sometimes it pays to look for information, This popped up

Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) personnel accounted for 9.2 per cent of the UK Regular Forces (13,690 personnel), at 1 April 2021.
From memory not all that different to the general population
Also
Only 0.4% of senior officers in the British Army are black, an investigation has revealed. A Freedom of Information request to the Ministry of Defence found that, in April 2021, Lieutenant Colonel ranks and above were overwhelmingly held by white people (97%).

That is odd and possibly a little misleading as it effectively says 3% have "ethnic" origins. I have no idea how the forces recruit but would guess qualifications as always figure. So does that area figure in the numbers or is it due to racism?

To my mind these numbers do not stack up as some are suggesting.

Then the forces in general. At times reports of people having "problems" crop up. Bullying and all sorts. The same thing happens in schools and from our own experiences we probably know colour can have nothing to do with that.

The other factor is racism and equality etc is currently a hot topic in the news. The news isn't exactly fond of giving us good, they would much rather find bad. Problems make better news. The current hot topic is household power costs. Hours and hours of mentions over and over again. If anything can be found about other hot topics you can bet it will be reported. There are also sources that have an axe to grind.

Women
The proportion of women serving in the UK Armed Forces is higher than ever before, according to the MoD. On 1 April 2021, there were 16,740 women in the UK Regular Forces, accounting for 11% of total strength. The proportion of women in the Reserves is slightly higher at 15% (5,650 women).15 Dec 2021
Can women fill all roles in the forces? I would say lots but probably not all. The want to be PM, ex forces feels not due to strength aspects going on comments she has made. Me - I don't know. It seems a squadi needs to be able to function with a 25kg back pack. Engineering type roles ~20kg.

I love the way the MOD reports on April the 1st and assume that aspect doesn't figure in what they have reported.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Do you think that people from ethnic minorities and women do not read the news?
Do you think that these people do not consider the reputation of the armed forces when considering a career?
I'm sure that the armed forces welcome women and ethnic minorities; The problem is they haven't dealt with the prejudice demonstrated against them... yet.

They're building soldiers, fighting machines, there to defend our country. I agree any blatant 'ism' directed towards someone within our own forces isn't justifiable and should be stamped out by those in control, however we surely need to be careful we're not going down the route of making our forces all cuddly wuddly and inclusive of everything.

 

[IT Minion]

The army has around 3,500 Gurkhas, around 3% of the regular forces. There is literal structural racism built into the Gurkha regiments.

Plus we recruit heavily from commonwealth countries and the majority of those soliders are ethnic minorities in the UK. They are often some of the best solders we have. See private Beharry above. But those are overwhelmingly enlisted soldiers.

The Navy is big on history and that effectively weighs against equality of sexes and race. The army is almost as tradition bound. The RAF has barely any history so don't have that excuse. All the services are working on it because recruitment and retention is so hard, but that doesn't mean they're succeeding.

 

[IT Minion]

25kg! hah!

Can women fill all roles in the forces? I would say lots but probably not all. The want to be PM, ex forces feels not due to strength aspects going on comments she has made. Me - I don't know. It seems a squadi needs to be able to function with a 25kg back pack. Engineering type roles ~20kg.

Hah. Webbing, standard amunition load, rifle and Kevlar helmet weighs in at around 44lbs. Flack jacket is extra. You're normally looking at more like 40-50kg on a patrol until you dump your Bergen. It's a problem.

 

[ajohn]

Typically, British Army Infantry units will carry the most weight (25 kg). Combat Support Arms, Royal Engineers, Royal Signals, and Royal Artillery) carry a lower amount of weight (20 kg).

 

[ajohn]

The Mark 7 helmet weights one kilogram (35 oz), significantly less than its 1.5-kilogram (53 oz) predecessor. It also has better chin strapping for stability and is produced in a new colour - tan, unlike the Mk 6A in black and Mk 6 in olive.

 

[ajohn]

The first flak jackets consisted of manganese steel plates sewn into a waistcoat made of ballistic nylon (a material engineered by the DuPont company); therefore, flak jackets functioned as an evolved form of plate armor or brigandine. The first flak jacket weighed 22 pounds.[2]

During the Korean and Vietnam wars, the flak jacket was changed and the manganese steel plates were replaced by other materials.[5] The U.S. Army's vests (Body Armor, Fragmentation Protective, Vest M69) weighed under eight pounds and were made of 12 layers of ballistic nylon. The vests used by the U.S. Marines (Vest, Armored M-1955) weighed more than ten pounds and were a combination of ballistic nylon layers and fiberglass plates known as Doron.[3] Doron was made of fiberglass fibers placed in an ethyl cellulose resin under high pressure. It was named after then-Colonel Georges F. Doriot, then director of the Military Planning Division, Office of the Quartermaster General.[2]