Couple of Questions on Intergas HSE 24SB and Atag A200S

[dieselracer13]

I've narrowed the boiler choice down to the above two but struggling to make a final decision.

Intergas because of it's simplicity and excellent heat exchanger.

Atag because of it's flexible flue arrangement.

The Atmos would have been a good compromise but not sure whether you can still get hold of these.

I am ordering in all the equipment because we get a good trade discount from our supplier rather than through our plumber.

We are replacing a Range Powermax 155x with a system boiler and unvented cylinder. The Powermax flues to a Ridge Vent, at the moment the loft isn't boarded so I can't get up to check the outlet spigot size, does anyone know what size this would be or what adaptor would be required to suit the Atag boiler?

With the Intergas when using the Fixing Jig part A is it possible at a later date to replace the expansion vessel without pulling the boiler off the wall?

Cheers

Mark

 

[Agile]

As far as I can see it would be potentially possible to lift the EXV upwards. But why are you asking about that? They are expected to last the lifetime of the boiler.

If you have concerns the EXV can be mounted elsewhere using their "Robokit"!

Have you discussed the cost of installation with your "plumber" ? Could be he puts a markup on supplied equipment and his labour will be higher if he does not supply.

Furthermore, he will have no responsibility if anything which he did not supply went wrong. Is he registered with Intergas to get the longer warrantee?

Best to let the installer deal with flueing as he is qualified and expected to know how to do it.

Tony

 

[muggles]

You can't reuse the old Powermax ridge vent with a new boiler, you'd have to use an approved terminal for the boiler being installed

 

[dieselracer13]

As far as I can see it would be potentially possible to lift the EXV upwards. But why are you asking about that? They are expected to last the lifetime of the boiler.

If you have concerns the EXV can be mounted elsewhere using their "Robokit"!

EXV's have been known to fail so just wanted to check that this is serviceable while in position and unfortunately because the boiler and cylinder will be sharing the airing cupboard space is at a premium which is why I was trying to avoid the Robokit.

Have you discussed the cost of installation with your "plumber" ? Could be he puts a markup on supplied equipment and his labour will be higher if he does not supply.

Furthermore, he will have no responsibility if anything which he did not supply went wrong. Is he registered with Intergas to get the longer warrantee?

The Intergas registered installer has put a mark up of approx. £700 for all items which is about 40% on top of my purchase costs. I have another installer who will install at his standard rate but I won't get the 5 year warranty. I shall still be checking with a few others. As I am being made redundant at the end of March money is at a premium.

Best to let the installer deal with flueing as he is qualified and expected to know how to do it.

Tony

I actually have the Atag Technical Rep visiting tomorrow to discuss flue options, from this I should have a better idea of which way to go so that I can finalise some quotes.

Many thanks

Mark

 

[dieselracer13]

You can't reuse the old Powermax ridge vent with a new boiler, you'd have to use an approved terminal for the boiler being installed

Thanks Andrew,

Does that include the Ridge Tile itself or just the adaptor that is bolted to it?

I actually have the Atag Technical Rep visiting tomorrow to discuss flue options, from this I should have a better idea of which way to go so that I can finalise some quotes.

 

[Tibbot]

You can't reuse any part of your old flue. If you're on a tight budget you'd be better off choosing an installer who'll supply & fit a boiler that's half the price. That way you sit back, let someone reputable take the strain, have a proper job and probably spend less money.

You're spending too much on the boiler then looking for cheap labour and dangerously reusing scraps of flue. I can't understand why people do this repeatedly, get problems then think the cure is just to buy an even dearer boiler next time.

 

[dieselracer13]

You can't reuse any part of your old flue. If you're on a tight budget you'd be better off choosing an installer who'll supply & fit a boiler that's half the price. That way you sit back, let someone reputable take the strain, have a proper job and probably spend less money.

You're spending too much on the boiler then looking for cheap labour and dangerously reusing scraps of flue. I can't understand why people do this repeatedly, get problems then think the cure is just to buy an even dearer boiler next time.

I haven't actually stated that I'm going to reuse the old flue, I just asked what adaptor would be required for the ridge tile, as far as I'm aware there is no other boiler that works with a Range Powermax flue. I've also stated that the Atag technical rep is visiting tomorrow so that I know that I'm getting the right advice before making the final decision.

Where have I said I'm looking for cheap labour, just looking for a good installation at a fair price, where is the harm in that.

 

[Tibbot]

Your ridge tile is the terminal of the old flue, part of the flue system. You CAN'T adapt it. New terminal or nothing. The mere fact that you seek a 'fit only' installer, with you doing the legwork, puts you in the market for a low end tradesman. Hence cheap.

 

[dieselracer13]

The mere fact that you seek a 'fit only' installer, with you doing the legwork, puts you in the market for a low end tradesman. Hence cheap.

So what you're saying then that the only good tradesman is one that marks up their materials 40% to rip their customers off?

 

[Tibbot]

I'm saying by getting a package deal within your budget, you could get a good job. What do you care what boiler they use and what profit they make? If it all comes in at the right price and the installer accepts responsibility to look after you for the long term. You're falling into the trap that expensive boilers have special powers. Are you going to question the ATAG rep what mark up they're on? Will you then claim they're ripping you off?

 

[Agile]

So what you're saying then that the only good tradesman is one that marks up their materials 40% to rip their customers off?

Every installer has different ways of quoting for work!

I charge £840 to fit a combi boiler of any make plus the combi at cost.

Others think it sounds cheaper to quote £440 and add £400 to the boiler price. It comes to the same thing!

You are accusing him of ripping you off. But to me he is just quoting a price split between the boiler and his labour.

Do you really think he will install the boiler for just his quoted labour price WITHOUT the £400 adition to the price of the boiler?

Maybe he will but I would not expect so! If he did then I would say that YOU would be ripping him off!

Tony

 

[dieselracer13]

So what you're saying then that the only good tradesman is one that marks up their materials 40% to rip their customers off?

Every installer has different ways of quoting for work!

I charge £840 to fit a combi boiler of any make plus the combi at cost.

Others think it sounds cheaper to quote £440 and add £400 to the boiler price. It comes to the same thing!

You are accusing him of ripping you off. But to me he is just quoting a price split between the boiler and his labour.

Do you really think he will install the boiler for just his quoted labour price WITHOUT the £400 adition to the price of the boiler?

Maybe he will but I would not expect so! If he did then I would say that YOU would be ripping him off!

Tony

I'm not looking for an argument on costs, I mistakenly came on here for a little advice on a couple of boilers and the flue, but for reference the quote was for a system boiler and vented store at £4,495.00 inc Vat, £1,440.00 inc VAT was for labour. The job was estimated at 4 days work. To me £1,440.00 is not a bad return for 4 days work. That leaves £3,055.00 for all components. I have now decided on an unvented cylinder which is approx. £400 cheaper than the thermal store and I've had a quote from our supplier of £1,714.00 inc VAT using the Intergas boiler and that includes flue, pipework, fittings and Spiroflow MB3, a couple of hundred more for the Atag. Taking out the extra cost of the thermal store that still amounts to a big mark up as well as a healthy labour cost.

 

[Tibbot]

Your flue question was answered. You chose to ignore the advice.

You're very quick at dissecting the installer. Just asking again, are you going to do the same for the rest of the supply chain? For example your merchant's profit will be for handling only (almost no work) The manufacturer will buy components cheaply then take minutes to make your boiler. You accept all the overheads, profit and lifestyles of everyone in the chain except your installer.

Why do you think your installer is the only one in the chain who should run a business at cost prices plus some pin money? How much of the £1440 labour for the week do you think ends up as disposable income?

What do you do for a living? I'm sure whatever it is, (unless you turn base metal into gold) if you look hard you'll find the cost of running your job could be halved.

 

[dieselracer13]

Your flue question was answered. You chose to ignore the advice.

You're very quick at dissecting the installer. Just asking again, are you going to do the same for the rest of the supply chain? For example your merchant's profit will be for handling only (almost no work) The manufacturer will buy components cheaply then take minutes to make your boiler. You accept all the overheads, profit and lifestyles of everyone in the chain except your installer.

Why do you think your installer is the only one in the chain who should run a business at cost prices plus some pin money? How much of the £1440 labour for the week do you think ends up as disposable income?

What do you do for a living? I'm sure whatever it is, (unless you turn base metal into gold) if you look hard you'll find the cost of running your job could be halved.

The flue question wasn't fully answered, just had an interesting meeting with Paul from Atag who has no problem with the ridge terminal being re-used with their adapters. He's just arranging for their RGI to visit to verify a couple of items before we decide on a system or combi boiler.

I'm a building services engineer and contract manager, unfortunately I let my domestic and commercial certificates slip approx. 15 years ago which is why I'm not doing the install myself as I'm not up to date on the latest boilers and regs. Due to the competitive market our hourly rates are now lower than what they were 10 years ago. Our mark up on materials and specialists is 10-15% dependant on the client and whether they are contract and non contract. All our mark ups and profit are disclosed at tender stage or quotation. But I only do the tenders for our commercial property so what do I know about the competitive market and securing the best prices on spares and consumables!

 

[Tibbot]

Unless you can get your mate from ATAG to re-write their MI's, you'll find what he is or is not ok with isn't worth the breath it's spoken in.