Covid-19 Inquiry (was meant to be about 'smart' meters)

No it doesn't. It is simply one who is not a theist.
Oxford ...

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Cambridge...

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... and if your argument is about the meaning o belief/believe, Oxford doth say ...

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"accepting that something .... is true ..... without proof" id precisely what ;'the religious' do,isn't it?

... but it's quite a long time until Friday ;)

but please don't take this discussion of it's current topic for second time!!

Kind Regards, John
 
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What matters is 'what government did'. Yes, of course, 'the government' consists of a number of individual human beings, but deciding what government actions were 'good', which were 'bad' and which could probably have been done better, and how (hence could be done better next time) in no way requires consideration of which particular human beings were involved in the government's actions.

As above, what matters is what the government did, and why.
The "government" is not an independent sentient entity. It may be legally independent, separate, but it has no agency by which it can make its own decisions, issue its own directives, etc.

Whatever "the government" does, it is actually people who did it, so of course we have to consider the people involved - there is no-one else.

If you think otherwise please give an example of how the government entity The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care of the United Kingdom could have carried out an action, like making a decision, or voting in Cabinet, or placing a Statutory Instrument in the Commons library, or whatever, which had not been carried out by the person Matt Hancock.

If C-19 had been perhaps only C-18, and the Cabinet musical chairs had stopped at a different point, Gavin Williamson could have been Health Secretary.

So what if "the government" was found to have screwed up because the Health Secretary had refused to read a SAGE email because he didn't like the way it was formatted. Where is there behaviour which can be questioned, and what is the entity which should change? The entity known as the Government? The entity known as the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care of the United Kingdom? Or the entity known as Gavin Williamson?

The actions of The Government are the symptoms.

The actions of the particular human beings involved are the cause.

So if the symptoms indicate a pathology which we'd rather not have, should we address the symptoms or the cause?

Essentially still 'as above'.

Interesting - in which case I think you probably need to clarify your political inclinations, since you appeared to be presenting an 'anti-Capitalist' argument.
And as for ideologies - it's funny, but when I look at countries with better run health services, better run railways, water bodies who don't pump s**t into the rivers, roads that get repaired, an education system which works and doesn't have buildings that fall on pupils' heads, a justice system which works, local government which actually works, etc, etc, etc, I don't see any "extreme Socialist" ones, I see capitalist ones.

You don't have to be anti-capitalist to want better run health services, better run railways, water bodies who don't pump s**t into the rivers, roads that get repaired, an education system which works and doesn't have buildings that fall on pupils' heads, a justice system which works, local government which actually works, etc, etc, etc.
 
That's what I always thought. Maybe the dictionary entries quoted by JohnW2 were created by the sort of people who don't have the ability to understand that absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
I have to say that, to the best of my knowledge, dictionary definitions have been along those lines throughout my life to date, which is why I have 'the problem' I eluded to, which leads me to feel that 'atheist' is not an appropriate term for me.

By most of those definitions, an atheist is a person who believes that no god or gods exist, seemingly in exactly the same way as others believe that one or more gods do exist - in both cases with no hard evidence/proof. It is because I was brought up with those definitions that I don't feel that calling me 'a believer' in anything (even 'a negative') about which I have no evidence is an appropriate description of my position.

Sure, I have seen no hard evidence which supports the existence of god(s) but nor have I seen hard evidence of their non-existence. As I often say, if you went back a few centuries and started talking to people about the technologies of the 21st century, I feel sure that many/most would regard what they were being told as being 'beyond belief' - but the passage of time has proved them wrong :)

Kind Regards, John
 
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Agreed.
Personally I have not seen any evidence so from about 10 years of age till now at 68 years. I have questioned why some folk believe and it seems to me that they have been taught it. Schools allied to churches etc etc methinks. So objectively is there any evidence or not. I believe not. I know sometimes folk get tied up in strangle logic and think that combined with constantly being taught something tends to cause them to believe.
I have noticed a lot of folk start to give some logic to support their beliefs but if you follow thru and use similar logic as evidence against they discount the logic that does not support their belief , often with a statement such as the lord moves in mysterious ways.
I remember a lady - a born again jovo, knowing I was impressed with the first moon landing. How brave or foolish Amstrong and Aldrin must have been . She commented “ I knew they would be safe, it says so in the Bible!” When I asked what it said she quoted a passage something like “ when you reach for the stars I will set you down safely “ hmm I can’t imagine a god being so callous. I asked why then did three of them burn to death on the launchpad.
She replied “ that did not count because they did not lift off!”
Oh dear, if God exists he would do that?
I think not
 
I think that if god did exist at things that are done in his name or are claimed to be so then he would be sad.

Why do folk fight?
 
By most of those definitions, an atheist is a person who believes that no god or gods exist, seemingly in exactly the same way as others believe that one or more gods do exist - in both cases with no hard evidence/proof.
No doubt some dictionaries do state that but it does not make it right nor make sense.

It is because I was brought up with those definitions that I don't feel that calling me 'a believer' in anything (even 'a negative') about which I have no evidence is an appropriate description of my position.
Then you should word the definition correctly by saying an atheist is a person who does not believe that god or gods exist.

Possibly (although unlikely) that person might never even have heard of such a thing so obviously it is not a belief in itself.
 
Then you should word the definition correctly by saying an atheist is a person who does not believe that god or gods exist.
That's the one which makes sense.

Amorality is the absence of morals.

Aseptic is the absence of contamination caused by harmful bacteria, viruses etc.

Anarchy is the absence of rulers.

And atheism is the absence of a belief in god(s).

If I say "I'm an atheist" I'm saying "I have no belief that god(s) exist". Just as with "absence of evidence" vs "evidence of absence", only the semantically challenged would equate "I have no belief that god(s) exist" with "I have a belief that no god(s) exist"

Possibly (although unlikely) that person might never even have heard of such a thing so obviously it is not a belief in itself.
I think that such people are often termed, by theists, as "heathens".
 
No doubt some dictionaries do state that but it does not make it right nor make sense.
As I said, to the best of my knowledge, most dictionaries do state that and, as I said, have done so as far back as I can remember.

If you want to persist with this second dramatic slide you have created from a thread about smart meter communication, I think we need a new thread, don't we?

Kind Regards, John
 
If I say "I'm an atheist" I'm saying "I have no belief that god(s) exist". ....
Fair enough (forgetting about dictionary definitions).

Do I take it that you would NOT say that you believe that god(s) do not exist? If so, does that leave your mind open to the possibility that they might exist?

As I've just written to EFLI, if you want this to persist, I think we need a new thread.

Kind Regards, John
 
I think I must admit some blame for encouraging an argument where non existed.
Sorry everybody.
 
I think I must admit some blame for encouraging an argument where non existed. Sorry everybody.
You're probably be unfair to yourself, since it was I who asked whether you had any strong religious (or political) beliefs, since they might have offered some opportunities for us to disagree about something (since we seem to agree about so many things)!

I never intended it to turn into a discussion about words and semantics, particularly given that it started well before Friday :)

Kind Regards, John
 
No worries John, I think everybody on the forum is still friends with everybody else on the forum, whether our opinions agree or not about certain subjects
 
No worries John, I think everybody on the forum is still friends with everybody else on the forum, whether our opinions agree or not about certain subjects
You seem to be forgetting the first of the very first two things I was taught in my further education:

1... With very very few exceptions, statements (and MCQ exam questions!) containing 'absolutes' are almost always incorrect.​
2... Common things are common, rare/obscure things are rare​

Change your "everybody" to "most people" (or even "almost everybody") and I would totally agree with you ;)

Kind Regards, John
 
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