Economy 7 metering query

[Taylortwocities]

I still dont see how a smart meter can tell whats connected to it.

At the moment they cannot, but its worth thinking about the implications of the "Internet of Things".........
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility for your elecric car to report to the energy company at what times it was charged, and for a "fuel levy" premium to be added to your energy account.

Big brother is here, be very concerned.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Unless you have some sort of smart charger as well, but why on earth would you choose to use one of those if it meant higher bills...

If you had a diesel car why on earth would you choose to not use red diesel if it meant higher bills?

 

[JohnW2]

There are two types of meter. 4 terminal - which means that the whole house goes onto E7 at midnight etc.. and a 5 terminal one with effectively 2 output 'lives' one for E7 and one for the rest of the time.

Indeed.

The second one is the one you don't want. When I chatted to the meter man, he had both on his van, I thought he'd be far more familiar with the idea of electric cars, but once I explained what I wanted, i.e the same as you, i.e the whole house to switch over, then it was ok.

Now that there is a choice, I don't really understand why anyone would want 'the second one' (unless there were a difference in tariff price, which I don't think there is). If one is going to have some loads switching to off-peak cost at night, why not have the whole house changing? ... even if often not all that much, we all have at least some loads functioning 24/7 (e.g. fridges and freezers), so why not 7 hours worth of cheap electricity for them as well??

I have 'the first one'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

At the moment they cannot, but its worth thinking about the implications of the "Internet of Things"............ Big brother is here, be very concerned.

He is, but he is currently esentially impotent in terms of the sort of things you're discussing.

Do you think it likely that (m)any of us will still be 'here' by the time this Big Brother has developed enough teeth to have much impact? After all, of all the millions (probably billions) of appliances in existence, to the best of my knowledge not one is yet a 'smart appliance'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

on't really understand why anyone would want 'the second one' (

It makes is easier to install storage heaters, which was it's original intent. You just have the heaters on a separate board and they are switched automatically.

With the 'whole house' type you need some method of switching the heaters when the off peak rate is activated, which is usually a low current output from the meter and a large contactor. Or the even more shoddy timer and contactor, which requires regular checks to ensure the heaters switch on at a suitable time.

 

[flameport]

(I think its called a white meter,

White meter was the original system, and involved 2 separate meters. The meters were identical internally, but the low rate had a white casing to distinguish it from other meters which were always black.

The output from the white meter was diverted through a timer, and later a radio teleswitch to activate only at certain times. A separate board was installed for those loads, and only those were metered at the lower rate.

 

[Aragorn84]

If you had a diesel car why on earth would you choose to not use red diesel if it meant higher bills?

Because unlike electricity, red diesel is red, and is subject to periodic inspection by HMRC, along with large fines if your caught.

Electricity is not red. HMRC have also stated that its not a fuel, and thus doesnt incur any fuel duty.

Every electric car sold comes with a charger equipped with a standard 13A plug, which can be plugged in anywhere you like, and uses standard white electrons.

If the govt want to replace the lost fuel duty, it simply doesnt seem feasible that you would try to charge more for the electricity, because its impossible to police. What if i plug the car in at a Cafe, or at a shopping centre, or at my mates house that doesnt have an EV? Or what if i plug it into a battery, that i charged up with some solar panels? Or even a battery i charged up at night using the mains?

It would make far more sense to simply have a mileage based system, where each month you submit your mileage, and a levy is calculated and applied as appropriate. Car are inspected every year by the government anyway for an MOT, so you've got an annual check of mileage.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Do you think it likely that (m)any of us will still be 'here' by the time this Big Brother has developed enough teeth to have much impact?

We, personally, may not be here but, at the time, "they" will have to do something.

Who knows what technology will be around?
Perhaps the car will tell GCHQ that it is being charged.

 

[flameport]

What if i plug the car in at a Cafe, or at a shopping centre, or at my mates house that doesnt have an EV? Or what if i plug it into a battery, that i charged up with some solar panels? Or even a battery i charged up at night using the mains?

Most cars will be charged at dedicated charging points, which can and will be taxed accordingly.
Most people will not use the 13A plug in adaptor because they will take far too long. It's also likely that newer cars will not be supplied with such things, once dedicated charging points are more plentiful.

Same applies to the battery/solar panels - the amount of charge from those would be so low, it would not be worthwhile to buy the panel/batteries in the first place.

 

[Aragorn84]

tinfoil hat for the car?

 

[EFLImpudence]

If the govt want to replace the lost fuel duty, it simply doesnt seem feasible that you would try to charge more for the electricity, because its impossible to police.

Anything to do with electricity would seem relatively simple to police.
It's all connected by wires.

You are probably not thinking that, with 23 million electric cars, there may not be enough to go round.

What if i plug the car in at a Cafe, or at a shopping centre,

Presumably they will charge you what they are told to charge you; just as filling stations collect excise duty and vat.

or at my mates house that doesnt have an EV? Or what if i plug it into a battery, that i charged up with some solar panels? Or even a battery i charged up at night using the mains?

We don't know yet.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what they come up with.

It will indeed.

 

[JohnW2]

It makes is easier to install storage heaters, which was it's original intent. You just have the heaters on a separate board and they are switched automatically.

That is true, but it's a one-off minor issue for the electrician, and an issue which most consumers will not even be aware of. From their point of view the only difference is that, with the 'whole house' method, all their 24/7 loads (and any others that can be utilised mainly at night) enjoy 7 hours per day of substantially decreased running cost which they wouldn't enjoy with the 'storage heaters only' system.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

enjoy 7 hours per day of substantially decreased running cost which they wouldn't enjoy with the 'storage heaters only' system.

Perhaps another reason why they didn't do it that way.

Should the question be why do they do it that way now?

 

[JohnW2]

Perhaps another reason why they didn't do it that way. Should the question be why do they do it that way now?

Interesting question. Particularly given the decline of storage heaters, they may well be trying to encourage people to shift the use of other loads to times of day when their generating capacity is very much under-utilised?

I have to say that I don't know if/how they every 'policed' the other system or, indeed, if their agreement with consumers actually 'prohibited' the use of off-peak electricity for anything other than storage heaters - the CU/DB which was fed from the 'off-peak-only' supply presumably was the property of the consumer, who could have installed whatever circuits in it as he/she saw fit. It would not even have been a major mission to install a change-over contactor which allowed some or all of the 'other' circuits to switch to the 'off-peak-only' supply just during off-peak hours.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

At the moment they cannot, but its worth thinking about the implications of the "Internet of Things".........
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility for your elecric car to report to the energy company at what times it was charged, and for a "fuel levy" premium to be added to your energy account.

Big brother is here, be very concerned.

It seems quite possible that the current waveform of EV chargers is known, and is sufficiently different from other long-term loads for a different tariff to be applied.