Economy 7 metering query

[ericmark]

At one time we had two meters one for lights and one for other power, the power for lights was cheaper and it was illegal to use other power items from the lights supply, and people were taken to court for using light power for other things, however this caused safety problems and well before I was born the duel supply idea was abandoned.

So I think it is unlikely that duel supplies will return.

As to economy 7 this is a tariff not a wiring system, as already said there are many ways to use the power, however for the electric vehicle there is a problem off-peak hours might be 11pm to 6am, 12 midnight to 7am, 1am to 8am or even 1.30am until 8.30am it depends on supplier it is not fixed. Now if you arrive home at 11 pm and the 7 hours start at 11 pm then that is great, by 6 am most the charging will be complete and it is going to just finish off using just a small amount of power at peak rate.

If however the off peak starts at 1:30 am and you plug in the vehicle at 6 pm most of the charging will use electric at peak rate which light use charging will be complete by 1:30 am however with a heavy use if you delay charge until 1:30 am it may not be complete in the morning when you want the vehicle.

With a special charger and vehicle set up it could be programmed to alter the charge rate to match the economy 7 supply, but as far as I know that technology does not exist, and with solar panels it is possible it never will as in the future the idea of using off peak power to even out the supply may not an advantage any more for the supplier.

It the vehicle supply only came though some sort of smart meter then the energy supplier could offer a special rate for vehicle charging where they can remotely switch the supply on and off to match demand, however this is something for the future. You would not want whole supply switched by energy provider only the supply to the electric vehicle.

I can see in the future special rates being on offer for the electric vehicle so they can be auto turned off at peak times. And with the new breed electric car with built in generator to extend range and allow recharging where there is not charging point it could be the way forward.

For some users with a standard daily usage they may know if charging started at time when economy 7 starts they will have enough charge to recharge within time. However with economy 7 the on peak power costs more, so unless one can ensure the off peak only is used then not really a good idea. Likely having the supplier switch power on and off is the best method to ensure you don't use on peak power.

As to what will happen if you switch off the charger with it still connected to the car I don't know, some chargers actually start to discharge batteries if left connected to batteries with no power to charger.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, but as I recently wrote, identifying the fact that part of the installation's prevailing consumption is due to an EV charger is only the start. One then has to somehow determine how much of the total consumption is attributable to the EV charger, and then find a way of metering that component.

No, one does not.

Once you've got the systems that only allow cars to charge from proper chargers, the chargers can record the usage. You would not think that at all remarkable if it was a public charging station and you had to pay there and then for what you used.

 

[Aragorn84]

Eric: Most EV's have a timer built into the cars controls, so you plug it in at 6pm, and tell it not to start charging until 1am or whenever.

Mine doesnt (well, it does, but it doesnt work ), but instead, i have a home automation device connected to the charger which switches it on at the offpeak times.

All EV's currently available have the ability to alter charging current on the fly, most have a minimum of about 6A, and can be adjusted by the charger from there up to the full rated current of the charger/cables, usually 32A, sometimes 16, sometimes 63.

So for instance some charge points might have a single phase 7kw supply and two outlets. If one car is connected, it will recieve the full 7kw. If someone else arrives, the first outlet drops back to 3.7 as the second comes online.

My car has a ~30kwh battery and a 3.7kw charger. So from dead flat it would take 10 hours to charge, but realistically, its never dead flat and most of the time will fully charge within the off-peak times. Many cars have 7kw chargers, so the charging time is halved. And even if you ONLY charge off peak, 8 hours at 3.7kwh puts about 25kwh into the battery, which is enough to drive around 75-100miles.

If you switch the charge point off at the mains, both the charge point and the cars main contactor opens and the car isnt connected to it any more. It wont magically discharge.

Theres various talk of smart grids, you can even do vehicle to grid, where at peak times you can allow your cars battery to be fed back into the grid to deal with peak demand. At the very least, the smart metering can introduce very fine TOD charging, to discourage people connecting large loads, including their car, at peak times. There is already a company offering a tariff called Tide, which has a third "peak" rate for 3 hours in the evening, but in exchange, a much reduced night rate. I'm not particularly sure the public will accept a solution where the smart meter just turns the car off (or any other appliance), but at least with variable rates then you can discourage it, while still allowing it for those who really must charge at that time.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So what happens when you drive to france/ireland (or anywhere else)? The special UK modified protocol then doesnt work, your car wont charge and your stuck.

I guess you'd have to find the nearest ****** who voted to leave the EU and berate them for being so retarded.

Except, of course, we'd have to sign up to implementing the same system as the rest of Europe.

Or, someone just invents a widget that connects between the car and outlet which tells the car what it wants to hear, and it'll start charging just fine.

And the reason that it could not, and would not, be made a criminal offence to own, use, or sell such a device would be what?

Remember we are not longer talking about the revenues of electricity suppliers - this is protecting government tax revenues, and that's a different world of regulations, laws, and sanctions.

My view is simply that the model will change.

We cant apply ICE thinking to an EV. Instead of trying to think of it like petrol or diesel, metering the fuel, and trying to charge per "litre", some other scheme will be invented, which is perhaps based on mileage or per-road charging using a GPS type system a bit like current insurers are using for new drivers. Or the whole thing will be completely restructured in ways we havent even considered.

That's a good thought - we could well do something like that.

Although I suspect that the entire model of ownership and use of vehicles will change, not just how people pay fuel duties.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not particularly sure the public will accept a solution where the smart meter just turns the car off (or any other appliance)

I'm not particularly sure that there won't come a day where the public have no choice but to accept such a solution (other than going off-grid).

And as a related aside - people should consider the existing rules for taxation of home-made biofuels before thinking that they could necessarily be able to charge their car using their "own" electricity and avoid paying an "EV charging duty".

As I said - tax revenues - the government (at least until we get a significantly different one) has got to do everything it can to collect tax from ordinary people so that it can continue to cut corporation tax.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Also, from the suppliers point of view, if night time becomes a high demand time because everyone has an EV then there will not be (cheaper) "economy" plans so the full rate will apply.

 

[JohnW2]

We cant apply ICE thinking to an EV. Instead of trying to think of it like petrol or diesel, metering the fuel, and trying to charge per "litre", some other scheme will be invented, which is perhaps based on mileage or per-road charging using a GPS type system a bit like current insurers are using for new drivers.

That sort of model would presumably require that the electricity used for charging would be supplied free of charge (the actually charging being on the basis of mileage). That would probably not be a major issue in relation to 'public' charging points but for home charging, would still require the amount of consumption attributable to EV charging to be 'metered' and not charged for.

Or the whole thing will be completely restructured in ways we haven't even considered.

I suspect that might well be what happens, but I do still think that we're probably talking about a timescale of very many decades.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

No, one does not. Once you've got the systems that only allow cars to charge from proper chargers, the chargers can record the usage. You would not think that at all remarkable if it was a public charging station and you had to pay there and then for what you used.

I did consider that possibility, but I came to the conclusion that it would probably only be acceptable to suppliers if they installed and maintained the chargers. I suppose that might happen (including the removal of all the chargers installed before they got around to doing that), but it would be a massive undertaking.

After all, one wouldn't expect suppliers to accept a situation in which consumers could install their own electricity meters (instead of a supplier's one) and be charged on the basis of what their own meter recorded, would one.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Also, from the suppliers point of view, if night time becomes a high demand time because everyone has an EV then there will not be (cheaper) "economy" plans so the full rate will apply.

Indeed so, and the users of storage heaters etc. would also lose out as a consequence.

Kind Regards, John

 

[StephenOak]

That sort of model would presumably require that the electricity used for charging would be supplied free of charge (the actually charging being on the basis of mileage). That would probably not be a major issue in relation to 'public' charging points but for home charging, would still require the amount of consumption attributable to EV charging to be 'metered' and not charged for.

No, you have forgotten that there are two parts to the current cost of fuel. The small part (c. 20% IIRC) the actual cost of the fuel, and the main part which is the tax. One goes to the fuel company and the other to the government.

Currently with an EV the electricity is paid for and that corresponds to the actual cost of the fuel and goes to the supplier. What is 'being lost' and 'needs to be recouped in some other manner' is the tax element.

So under a scheme "based on mileage or per-road charging using a GPS type system a bit like current insurers are using for new drivers", the electricity would be paid for (by the homeowner or the owner of the public charging point) and the per mile charge (or whatever) would be paid by the car owner on top.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

After all, one wouldn't expect suppliers to accept a situation in which consumers could install their own electricity meters (instead of a supplier's one) and be charged on the basis of what their own meter recorded, would one.

One would, if the chargers were:

1. Made to an approved standard
2. Tamperproof
3. Installed by an "approved person" (cf MCS certified if you want FIT payments).

 

[JohnW2]

No, you have forgotten that there are two parts to the current cost of fuel. The small part (c. 20% IIRC) the actual cost of the fuel, and the main part which is the tax. One goes to the fuel company and the other to the government.

I hadn't forgotten that, but it seems that I misunderstood what was being suggested.

Are you suggesting that the electricity used would simply be charged at the standard rate (hence no problems of metering) and that just the excise duty would be collected on a mileage basis (using a GPS-based system or whatever)? If so, that's fair enough, and is quite probably what we will eventually see for 'car tax' etc. as well as fuel excise duty.

However, I thought the concerns related to the electricity supply (not just the excise duty), with fears that 'Big Brother' and his friend the 'smart meter' would monitor and maybe 'control' home EV charging (and many other things) and maybe levy a different charge for electricity (not excise duty) used for EV charging.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Yes, but as I recently wrote, identifying the fact that part of the installation's prevailing consumption is due to an EV charger is only the start. One then has to somehow determine how much of the total consumption is attributable to the EV charger, and then find a way of metering that component. With current installation wiring and meters, I don't see how such metering could be done locally.

No, one only has to work out a tariff that applies to mixed use including EV charging. It doesn't have to be accurately reflecting the purpose for which the energy is used, as long as it's acceptable to the regulators, i.e. sufficiently accurate in the majority of cases.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Are you suggesting that the electricity used would simply be charged at the standard rate (hence no problems of metering) and that just the excise duty would be collected on a mileage basis (using a GPS-based system or whatever)? If so, that's fair enough, and is quite probably what we will eventually see for 'car tax' etc. as well as fuel excise duty.

However, I thought the concerns related to the electricity supply (not just the excise duty), with fears that 'Big Brother' and his friend the 'smart meter' would monitor and maybe 'control' home EV charging (and many other things) and maybe levy a different charge for electricity (not excise duty) used for EV charging.

I guess they could do either. The first would probably require a greater investment in infrastructure, and would create privacy concerns.

Smart metering and control of appliances seems inevitable anyway, as it will be an easier way to address the widening gap between supply and demand than increasing supply. And even if they know when, and to what extent, you charged your car they won't know where and when you went in it, unless they do create the first-option monitoring environment.

 

[stillp]

Smart metering and control of appliances seems inevitable anyway, as it will be an easier way to address the widening gap between supply and demand than increasing supply.

Let's not forget the other motive for government/generators' encouragement of EVs - the potential to use the millions of part-charged EVs as grid-connected batteries during periods of high demand. One of the speakers at a seminar I attended a couple of years ago was drooling at the thought of all (or a large percentage) the vehicles parked at Heathrow for a known duration. The drivers wouldn't know (or care) how much energy their car provided to the grid, as long as it was fully charged when their incoming flight lands.