Electric heating 3 meters tariffs no one supports it

[JohnW2]

11.910p and 2.100p here, plus standing charges.

For what?

Electric per kwh and gas per kwh.

Interesting - they sound like remarkably low figures - 'average' figures one sees quoted are more like 17 and 4.5 p/kWh respectively.

Whatever, my bulk LPG is still under half the price of what you appear to be paying for electricity (and less than a tird of what most people are paying for electricity).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Interesting - they sound like remarkably low figures - 'average' figures one sees quoted are more like 17 and 4.5 p/kWh respectively.

I shop around, every year end

Cheapest for heat, is a wood burner with a free source of wood on the door step.

 

[JohnW2]

I shop around, every year end

I imagined that, but you seem to have done particularly well! You may have noticed that when I last did my shopping around, some of the discussion here got a bit confused because, at least for some suppliers, the prices are dramatically different in different parts of the country - which seems a bit difficult to understand!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

which seems a bit difficult to understand!

Yes, I was surprised by that, but logical I suppose - it must depend on population density and distribution costs. It is not dense here where I live, but not far from high density.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, I was surprised by that, but logical I suppose - it must depend on population density and distribution costs. It is not dense here where I live, but not far from high density.

It might be a bit 'logical' in a very long-term sense but when a local distribution infrastructure is already in place, it's not quite so easy (at least, not for me) to understand it as an explanation for marked regional variations.

Whatever the explanation, it should obviously apply equally across all suppliers (since there is only one distribution network, common to all of them), so it could not explain why some suppliers have much larger regional differences (if any) than others.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

It might be a bit 'logical' in a very long-term sense but when a local distribution infrastructure is already in place, it's not quite so easy (at least, not for me) to understand it as an explanation for marked regional variations.

It might be in place, but it costs money to maintain and the further the electrons have to travel, the greater the losses.

In part, I suspect it is also market driven, the suppliers will offer favourable prices in areas they want or want to keep customers. I also get good prices for my broadband too, with plenty of choice of which supplier to use.

 

[winston1]

the further the electrons have to travel, the greater the losses.

They don't travel anywhere. They vibrate on the spot, but I know what you meant.

 

[JohnW2]

It might be in place, but it costs money to maintain and the further the electrons have to travel, the greater the losses.

Hmmm - as for that second point, the question it begs is 'travel from where?', given that we have a National Grid. I suppose that a few places, in remote areas, might have unusually long path lengths to any generating facility, but I would have thought that the great majority of places have roughly similar 'average path lengths to generators', don't they?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Hmmm - as for that second point, the question it begs is 'travel from where?', given that we have a National Grid. I suppose that a few places, in remote areas, might have unusually long path lengths to any generating facility, but I would have thought that the great majority of places have roughly similar 'average path lengths to generators', don't they?

The further it has to go along the grid, the greater are the losses. On a good day, from a good vantage point, I can see three of the biggest conventional power stations in the UK.

 

[JohnW2]

The further it has to go along the grid, the greater are the losses. On a good day, from a good vantage point, I can see three of the biggest conventional power stations in the UK.

Sure, but as I said (albeit maybe I'm wrong) ...

... I would have thought that the great majority of places have roughly similar 'average path lengths to generators', don't they?

Don't forget that, as Mr Kirchoff would tell you, the fact that you can see one (or more) generators does not alter the fact that at least some of your electricity will be coming from generators hundreds of miles away.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

The further it has to go along the grid, the greater are the losses. On a good day, from a good vantage point, I can see three of the biggest conventional power stations in the UK.

I don't think you can see three that are still working.

 

[SimonH2]

I'm not sure of the present situation, but I certainly did not pay to have an LPG tank installed (about 33 years ago), but it was fairly recently 'routinely replaced', on it's 30th birthday, at no cost to me.

The default situation is that your chosen gas supplier will provide the tank - which it continues to own, thus saving you the capital cost which can easily be a grand or two. You are responsible for the costs of piping the gas to wherever it's needed, etc. So while you wouldn't need to pay for the tank, you'd still have the cost of all the plumbing, the boiler, all the CH plumbing, etc, etc - so a good few grand up front.
The downside to this arrangement is that only the one supplier can fill the tank - so you cannot shop around, you are tied to whoever owns the tank. This led to the farce of when you did switch suppliers, the new supplier had to put a new tank in, and the old supplier take their's away. Having to change tanks to change supplier was a definite brake on switching, and so to a large extent there was no competition for the price of gas to existing customers.
Eventually, the government saw the idiocy of this situation, and rules were brought in that mandated the suppliers sell the tanks between themselves - so now people could switch suppliers, and the suppliers would transfer ownership of the existing tank. IIRC there's a limit on how often you can switch - something like minimum of 2 years with current supplier seems to ring a bell.

 

[JohnW2]

The default situation is that your chosen gas supplier will provide the tank - which it continues to own, thus saving you the capital cost which can easily be a grand or two. You are responsible for the costs of piping the gas to wherever it's needed, etc.

Indeed - but that's actually changed. When I had my original tank installed, that included (at no cost) pipework all the way up to where they installed an isolator valve where it enters one's house, and both ownership and maintenance responsibility for that pipework remained theirs - which was good for me, since it must be at least 50 metres of underground pipework! However, contracts have now changed, and their ownership and responsibility ends at the valve on the tank.

So while you wouldn't need to pay for the tank, you'd still have the cost of all the plumbing, the boiler, all the CH plumbing, etc, etc - so a good few grand up front.

Indeed - but, as I said, if one were 'starting from scratch' (e.g. a newbuild) one would also have substantial up-front costs with any fuel.

The downside to this arrangement is that only the one supplier can fill the tank - so you cannot shop around, you are tied to whoever owns the tank.

Well, it's not that different from other fuels - whilst one has a contract with one gas/electricity supplier, one can only get one's 'supply' from that once source.

Eventually, the government saw the idiocy of this situation, and rules were brought in that mandated the suppliers sell the tanks between themselves - so now people could switch suppliers, and the suppliers would transfer ownership of the existing tank.

Indeed, 'switching' LPG is now essentially no more difficult (or costly) than switching electricity of (piped) gas suppliers.

IIRC there's a limit on how often you can switch - something like minimum of 2 years with current supplier seems to ring a bell.

That sounds about right. There's certainly a substantial 'tank uplift charge' if one cancels a contract (without switching to a different supplier) within 2 years.

In practice, the need to 'switch' seems a lot less with LPG than with other fuels, since it seems that price is pretty 'negotiable'. I've always stayed with Calor, mainly with 2-year contracts. As each contract approaches its end, I look around, find the best quotes on offer and wave them at Calor - and every time (so far!) they have equalled or bettered the best of the competitive quotes.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

Interestingly, a few years ago I was thinking of putting a tank in for filling the Land Rover. Lovely thing, a V8 powered Landy - apart from feeding it
I couldn't get anyone to even quote for gas. One "reason" seemed to be a reluctance to have anything to do with a tank they didn't supply - even if "in date" for certification. Seems a strange business model, refuse to sell your wares when customers ask for a price

 

[JohnW2]

Interestingly, a few years ago I was thinking of putting a tank in for filling the Land Rover. Lovely thing, a V8 powered Landy - apart from feeding it I couldn't get anyone to even quote for gas. One "reason" seemed to be a reluctance to have anything to do with a tank they didn't supply ....

Why didn't you ask one of the companies to supply a tank, and then fill it as required (which is what normally happens)?

If it's not their tank, for the maintenance of which they were responsible, then could there be safety-related regulatory issues. I imagine, for example, that one might have a problem if one somehow acquired a 'suitable' tank and then asked someone to fill it with petrol!

.... - even if "in date" for certification.

In addition to the visual inspections which occur every time there is a delivery (and occasional re-painting, as necessary), the major inspections for my Calor tank are already 'scheduled' for the next 26 years. The 'ultrasonic inspections' usually take a whole day - I don't know what the 30-year "thorough tank inspection" would amount to since, once my previous one hit its 30th birthday, they simply replaced it. ...

Kind Regards, John