Electrician wants to test entire system before working

[brettjbuckley]

We need some extra plug sockets fitting in our 1966 semi - each room (except the kitchen and lounge) typically has just one single socket. I also want a new distribution board as I'm tired of changing fuse wire.

I had an electrician round last night who basically refused to do any work without testing the whole system. He spotted several old fashioned bakelite style sockets and suggested that he need to doing a full system check before he was allowed to change any parts of the system - including the distribution board. He expected that a complete rewire was needed. which would cost up to £3,000. Worse still we have cables running to the garage under several inches of concrete and all rooms are paped so it will be messy.

Our original plan had been to rewire as and when we decorated each room (we're currently doing 2 of the bedrooms and want the extra sockets).

Where do we go from here? He went on to say that it would soon be difficult to even get household insurance without having a electrical test certificate. Was he just trying to make a job for himself?

 

[andy]

he need to doing a full system check before he was allowed to change any parts of the system

never herd of that one before

difficult to even get household insurance without having a electrical test certificate

most poeple dont have a test certificate

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We need some extra plug sockets fitting in our 1966 semi - each room (except the kitchen and lounge) typically has just one single socket. I also want a new distribution board as I'm tired of changing fuse wire.

If fuses keep blowing then there is something wrong - it's not the fault of the fuseboard, so you need to get that sorted. Changing to circuit breakers will mean that they trip even more frequently, as they are more sensitive.

I had an electrician round last night who basically refused to do any work without testing the whole system.

That is a prudent stance to take, particularly regarding main and equipotential bonding.

He spotted several old fashioned bakelite style sockets and suggested that he need to doing a full system check before he was allowed to change any parts of the system - including the distribution board.

He's right about doing a full inspection and test - a bit of an exaggeration to say that he's not "allowed" to do anything else first, at least, not until Jan '05. But as I said above, it sounds as though this should be done anyway.

He expected that a complete rewire was needed. which would cost up to £3,000.

He might be right, unfortunately.

Worse still we have cables running to the garage under several inches of concrete and all rooms are paped so it will be messy.

It will indeed, but if the cables to the garage needs replacing it'd be easier to run new ones than dig up the old.

Our original plan had been to rewire as and when we decorated each room (we're currently doing 2 of the bedrooms and want the extra sockets).

Well - depending on how dire your existing installation is, you ought to be able to get the electrician to agree to that.

Where do we go from here?

Get at least 2 more opinions and quotes.

He went on to say that it would soon be difficult to even get household insurance without having a electrical test certificate.

Another slight exaggeration - that day is getting closer but it will be for new policies, and whilst your insurance may well have small print about only qualified electricians to be used, I've not heard of insurance companies demanding tests before they will renew.

Was he just trying to make a job for himself?

His advice to have the installation checked out was 100% correct.
His warning that a full rewire might be needed was 100% correct.
His estimate of £3K for that is in the ball-park.
I think he came on a bit strong about the insurance, and what he's "allowed" to do. Was he a NICEIC member, by any chance?

You do need to take some action, asap, to find out more about what you've got. It is possible that you do need an immediate and complete rewire, which is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is possible that you do have old rubber-insulated cables - mid sixties is slap in the middle of the change from rubber to PVC.

On the other hand, you might find that the only pressing need is to update the bonding, and that the rest of the work can be staged.

Get more quotes - if you can find an electrician who's personally recommended this is good news.

Once you've established what needs doing, and how urgently, get prices for your staged approach, but bear in mind this will cost more overall.

 

[bodger67]

My suggestion - find another sparky!

Always get at least three quotes from recommended local tradesmen and not any big national firms, or anyone whose name begins with something like "111111AAAAAA 1st Electrical......" Don't know where you are, but we have a thing called "The Little Green Book" in our area which only includes entries from recommended tradesmen. Web site is http://www.littlegreenbook.co.uk/.

If you're doing it yourself, there are lots of regs that you're not going to be aware of, but there's no reason I know of to rewire a 60s property. My last place was built in 65, was full of grey cable and had the old Wylex plug-in fuses.

I did exactly what you were planning - rewired and added sockets as I went round renovating the house. I also split the ring-main in two to provide a separate circuit for the kitchen and replaced the plug-in fuses with plug-in MCBs for about £10-15 each. Some of the grey cable remained in places where I couldn't get to it, but since it had been happily carrying 240v for the last 30 years I guessed it was probably OK.

Whether it would pass an inspection I don't know, but it was safe, worked and I'm doing the same in my new place where, it seems, the so-called pro that added some sockets a few years back put every one of them in crooked, didn't earth the boxes and didn't tighten the terminals, resulting a few scares as I remove sockets from the walls to decorate.

Good luck!

Nick

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you're doing it yourself, there are lots of regs that you're not going to be aware of, but there's no reason I know of to rewire a 60s property.

How about it might be VIR?
How about if it's not, it will be old PVC cable, and the insulation doesn't have the same life as todays?
How about it'll be the old Imperial sized cable, with undersized cpcs and higher volt-drop and lower capacity in the phase cores?
How about no earths on lighting circuits?
How about no equipotential bonding?
How about inadequate main bonding?

My last place was built in 65, was full of grey cable and had the old Wylex plug-in fuses.

That could well have been the old cable with aging PVC and undersized cpcs etc...

Some of the grey cable remained in places where I couldn't get to it, but since it had been happily carrying 240v for the last 30 years I guessed it was probably OK.

Then let's hope you guessed right, eh? Particularly for the sake of future occupants who might well think the whole thing was rewired, and whose lives might depend on the accuracy of that guess. The same principle has been applied, by people just like you, to VIR - "it's been alright for 50 years so it must be alright forever"....

Whether it would pass an inspection I don't know, but it was safe,

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you possibly know that it was safe? How can you be complacent about its safety if you have doubts over whether it would pass an inspection?

and I'm doing the same in my new place

You don't learn, do you...

Good luck!

Same to you and yours....

 

[brown-nought]

Agree 100% with BAS. Its hard to know how anal he is being without seeing your installation. However would you want to risk a potentially problematic job just before a Part P/NICEIC assessment?

You should have a periodic inspection every 5 years. It’s a bit like a dental check up every 6 months – and we all put them off …. until ….. Aggghhhh.

Get more quotes, a pro should spot warning signs quickly. Ask each one what they think is needed and see where they agree. You can always post a few photos of the wiring, fuse box etc if you want the forums views. If they all come back and say have an inspection … well you cannot put the dentist of forever!.

 

[bodger67]

I'll consider myself suitably ticked off for appearing to offer advice I'm not qualified to give, and I'm choking on the humble pie as I write...

How about it might be VIR?
How about if it's not, it will be old PVC cable, and the insulation doesn't have the same life as todays?
How about it'll be the old Imperial sized cable, with undersized cpcs and higher volt-drop and lower capacity in the phase cores?
How about no earths on lighting circuits?
How about no equipotential bonding?
How about inadequate main bonding?

How do I identify the old PVC? Is all grey bad or just the stranded stuff as I'd previously understood? Does this mean that every house built prior to standardisation on 2.5mm cable is unsafe?

Some of the grey cable remained in places where I couldn't get to it, but since it had been happily carrying 240v for the last 30 years I guessed it was probably OK.

Then let's hope you guessed right, eh? Particularly for the sake of future occupants who might well think the whole thing was rewired, and whose lives might depend on the accuracy of that guess. The same principle has been applied, by people just like you, to VIR - "it's been alright for 50 years so it must be alright forever"....

A bit flippant, I agree, but it definitely wasn't Vulcanised India Rubber and there was never any suggestion to the purchaser that the place had been completely re-wired. In fact, quite the opposite since I was keen not to misrepresent the property. Their surveyor no doubt recommended an inspection which they didn't have done, I suspect, because of the cost and the likelihood that an installation in a house that age wouldn't pass and would hold up their move.

Whether it would pass an inspection I don't know, but it was safe,

Do you not see the contradiction there? How can you possibly know that it was safe? How can you be complacent about its safety if you have doubts over whether it would pass an inspection?

I see your point.

I did replace the majority of the old cable with new, mainly because the repositioning of the fittings required it, and that which was left behind was solid core and not stranded. All circuits were protected by MCBs so that if a fault did develop it would be isolated quickly.

I ensured that all earths were properly terminated either in a fitting or junction box. I also bonded plumbing and boxes, ensured that cables in walls were in conduit and not just plastered over (as I've found here) and that those under the floor were clipped in place a safe distance below the floorboards (which they weren't in many cases). Every socket in the place ended up on the ring and not spurred - here I found a double spur off a double spur which I'm fairly sure wouldn't pass an inspection.

I maintain that the electrical installation was safeR than when I moved in, largely because I was not complacent about safety. Ignorant on some finer detail maybe.

and I'm doing the same in my new place

You don't learn, do you...

Yes, I do - from helpful contributors such as yourself. I related my own experiences to a fellow DIYer and you've put us both straight on a few points based on your professional knowledge. That's why I joined the forum.

Good luck!

Same to you and yours....

Thanks!

 

[kai]

A 1960's house, still with it's original wiring is a can of worms, with many hidden dangers, such as decaying cables, green slime oozing from the cables, and undersized or missing earthing conductors, a full rewire is recommended - call in a professional electrician in to check it over.

 

[Damocles]

Who said anything about green slime oozing from cables? I do not recall anyone posting about serious problems with early pvc cables. Undersized earthing is one of those regulations which comes and goes. Even if the cable has a cpc which would now be considered undersized, the circuit might still come within parameters if tested and be safe. Even bonding regulations change from time to time. Earthing of kitchen sinks has been discontinued.

yes, check cables are not rotting (it might be difficult to thoroughly test insulation without specialist equipment). Check nothing has eaten them. Check cables are not burnt, stiffened, connections are good. Many of these things apply if it was done last year just as much as 50 years ago.

To say a full rewire is recommended is an exagerations. There are lots of factors contributing to this, including the one you have spotted, that there would not be nearly enough sockets.

Oh, and to dentists. Compulsory 6 month tests are being discontinued. Not cost effective.

 

[2scoops0406]

Oh, and to dentists. Compulsory 6 month tests are being discontinued. Not cost effective.

Compulsory 6 month test, Oh S**t when did they come in

 

[delmel]

We need some extra plug sockets fitting in our 1966 semi - each room (except the kitchen and lounge) typically has just one single socket. I also want a new distribution board as I'm tired of changing fuse wire.

I had an electrician round last night who basically refused to do any work without testing the whole system. He spotted several old fashioned bakelite style sockets and suggested that he need to doing a full system check before he was allowed to change any parts of the system - including the distribution board. He expected that a complete rewire was needed. which would cost up to £3,000. Worse still we have cables running to the garage under several inches of concrete and all rooms are paped so it will be messy.

Our original plan had been to rewire as and when we decorated each room (we're currently doing 2 of the bedrooms and want the extra sockets).

Where do we go from here? He went on to say that it would soon be difficult to even get household insurance without having a electrical test certificate. Was he just trying to make a job for himself?

If your installation is that old, he is correct in advising you of the latest requirements as of the 1st Jan this will be in the building regulations and made law. If he was to just change the board then you could expect bigger problems with nuisance tripping. The quoted price is very competitive if he is a qualified electrician. Note just because they may be NICEIC does not mean they are the best electrician in the area. I recomend getting three quotes, from electricians in the area pref through recommendation. If you dont know any ask your local ELECTRICAL Wholesaler to make recommendations.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A 1960's house, still with it's original wiring is a can of worms, with many hidden dangers, such as decaying cables, green slime oozing from the cables, and undersized or missing earthing conductors, a full rewire is recommended - call in a professional electrician in to check it over.

Last post by millennium_boy 13th August.

First post by kai 15th August.


Hmmmm

 

[brettjbuckley]

Another contact tells me that if rewiring then the electrician may also need to adjust the height of any sockets / switches due to new regs. Is this for the handicapped?

What next!? It needs rewiring because the cable is British-made and should now be sourced in the EU!?

Fair enough, I will trust the electrician's opinion. Cost is not an issue - I'm just trying to minimise the amount of disruption in rooms that we probably won't manage to redecorate for quite some time.

 

[brown-nought]

Part M heights only apply to new builds.

You will only need to relocate sockets if they are so low as to damage the flex cables plugged into them. (The old figure was 150mm if I recall correctly).

New builds should put sockets/light switches between 450mm and 1200mm off the floor.

 

[AdamW]

New builds should put sockets/light switches between 450mm and 1200mm off the floor.

When I find the idiot who passed that one... Hmmm, wonder if you could use an extra-large, extra-deep skirting board, count that as floor and then mount the light switches at (what most would regard) a correct, toddler proof, aesthetic height of 1500mm?

Anyone know the building regs as to what constitutes floor level?