Electrics setup all strange after electrician has been out. Riddle inside (stiff drink needed)...
- Thread starter Mr. Clueless
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I presume you meant Wiring Regulations as opposed to the Building Regulations.
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OBND: I've been quite busy the past couple of nights so haven't looked at the joists. I wanted to ask you via PMabout that if its ok with you since its drifting off topic which I want to avoid.
PBC: I do hope I've got the wrong end of the stick & you're not implying I need telling & telling the same thing over because that is nonsense.
What I need to do is to understand & I can only do that by asking questions, checking things out & trying to safeguard myself against someone in person who may try argue the case & i'd then have no ammunition (had I not asked more & understood fully).
If you weren't implying that then apologies.
PBC: I do hope I've got the wrong end of the stick & you're not implying I need telling & telling the same thing over because that is nonsense.
What I need to do is to understand & I can only do that by asking questions, checking things out & trying to safeguard myself against someone in person who may try argue the case & i'd then have no ammunition (had I not asked more & understood fully).
If you weren't implying that then apologies.
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Oh & I doubt it's from pulling wires in the security alarm box. I put them back, I didn't just grab a handful & yank. The fuse went back, the battery plugged back in.
Indeed it was working after we got power back. It just stopped once the electrician came out.
Indeed it was working after we got power back. It just stopped once the electrician came out.
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Far from it - It was just an observation that the issue of RCD protection could open a very large can of worms with opinions as to how important or otherwise it is.
To try and summarize the situation objectively without inflaming passions on either side, there are the Wiring Regulations, otherwise known as BS7671, which are the generally adopted standard for electrical installations in the U.K. and to which electricians registered with the various schemes will normally adhere. These rules have gradually extended the situations in which they specify that an RCD should be provided over the years, until in 2008 they stipulated that RCD protection should be provided for all 13A sockets (with a few specific exceptions), not just for those which might be expected to be used for equipment outdoors as was previously the case. Despite the use of the term "regulations" though, BS7671 is not statutory, and there is no law which says that electrical work in the U.K. must be carried out in accordance with BS7671.
Then there are the Building Regulations, which set out all sorts of requirements for homes under various parts identified by letters (Part A covering basic structural requirements, part F for ventilation, part H for drainage etc.). These really are regulations in the legal sense, since there is a statutory obligation to comply with them. Electrical work was brought into these regulations for the first time in 2005 as Part P. But all that the actual law requires is that "reasonable provision for safety" shall be made, which is obviously open to a large amount of interpretation. As with other parts of Building Regulations, there is what is known as an "Approved Document" which sets out guidelines on how compliance with that rather vague legal requirement might be achieved, and it does suggest that following all of the rules within BS7671 would certainly result in work which is deemed to be compliant. But it also acknowledges that there is no obligation to follow BS7671 or indeed to adhere to any of that guidance specifically.
So that's the legal position. As for what is safe or not, as that poll (and others) and the related comments demonstrate, opinion might be said to be a little divided. Some of us recognize the added level of protection that an RCD might provide, but consider it to be minimal and certainly wouldn't consider sockets not RCD protected to be in any way unsafe, any more than we might consider a car without ABS to be in any way unsafe just because ABS might offer a slight increase in safety. Others feel more strongly about it, and insist that RCD protection is essential and will be quite insistent not only about providing it for new sockets but about adding it for existing wherever possible (although BS7671 does not requie that).
British electricians on the whole are very much in the BS7671 mindset, not surprisingly given its nature and that working to it is generally a condition of their membership of the various schemes, so you'd probably be hard-pressed to find one who wouldn't want to install the RCD protection on new sockets now. But even so, given that most of them were still quite happily installing sockets without RCD protection as recently as 2008 and stating it to be perfectly fine (and compliant with BS7671 at that time), I think few would really claim that not having the RCD protection results in something which isn't still reasonably safe. The committee responsible for the rules in BS7671 also suggests that when inspecting an older installation which doesn't have RCD protection on all sockets there is no need to mark it down as being any sort of potential danger, only that they "recommend improvement" to bring it up to the current standard.
We do have one member here who will no doubt be along shortly to express his opinion that not providing the RCD protection is not "reasonable provision for safety" and is therefore illegal because it does not comply with that requirement in Part P of the Building Regulations, but that seems to be very much a minority opinion and there has never been any legal precedent to support it.
If your "electrician" was supposed to be following BS7671, then RCD protection should have been added for the new sockets (and for cables buried less than 2 inches from the surface, by the way). But personally, given the absolute mess made of the lighting wiring I would be far more concerned about the general standard of workmanship and competency in the basics than with the fact that no RCD was added, hence why I put the term in quotes since I don't think anyone who can leave something this messed up really has any business to be called a real electrician.
So with apologies for the rather lengthy post, I hope that explains the situation somewhat more clearly. And I hope everyone else (bar one) feels that whatever our personal opinions about the necessity or otherwise of the RCD, my assessment above is a fair representation of the situation.
Forgive the pedantry, but actually there is BS7671 "Requirements for electrical installations", otherwise known as "IEE Wiring Regulations".
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Thanks very much PBC. I'm glad you didn't take my comment the wrong way. A simple misunderstanding put right 
And i don't mind the lengthy post. I make enough of them & it's always good to read up on something you don't know about.
And i don't mind the lengthy post. I make enough of them & it's always good to read up on something you don't know about.
Not what he said. It is the Wiring Regulations rather than the Building Regulations.
Risteard - there is plenty of room for you to be wrong too - despite the egregious fallacies in his pronouncements PBC has not taken up every seat on the "I am in the wrong" side of the auditorium.
I'm not wrong. It is a requirement of the Wiring Regulations which is a separate document to the Building Regulations.
And about 2 pages of this topic are all my fault- yes I was lazy, the short version was (I think) factually correct but very abbreviated so apologies to the purists. Full version would read along the lines of 'Any additions to or modifications of your household wiring whether notifiable or not must comply with current building regulations - as things stand right now to comply with building regs any additions/modifications must comply with BS7671 Amendment 2'. In 4 days time it'll read Amendment 3. Happy days. Think CPC are pushing their luck- still some bargain plastic consumer units to be had
That should be IET
And about 2 pages of this topic are all my fault- yes I was lazy, the short version was (I think) factually correct but very abbreviated so apologies to the purists. Full version would read along the lines of 'Any additions to or modifications of your household wiring whether notifiable or not must comply with current building regulations - as things stand right now to comply with building regs any additions/modifications must comply with BS7671 Amendment 2'. In 4 days time it'll read Amendment 3. Happy days. Think CPC are pushing their luck- still some bargain plastic consumer units to be had
The building regs do not demand you comply with BS7671, but it is the simplest way to satisfy your labc. Amendment 3 has been in force since July 1st, with reg 421.1.201 coming into force in January.
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