I added my name.
Unfortunately, I am one of only a quarter of a million at present.
So it looks like the current pantomime of Blue and Red taking it in turns is set to continue.
C'est la vie.
European Referendum
- Thread starter jeds
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I added my name.
Unfortunately, I am one of only a quarter of a million at present.
So it looks like the current pantomime of Blue and Red taking it in turns is set to continue.
C'est la vie.
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The economy is very important and so are the questions about immigration and overcrowding in the UK.
But nothing comes close in importance to maintaining a peaceful Europe - nothing.
Its been noted in a few places that this debate about Europe has heightened coincidentally with the anniversary of WW1.
The EU is a kind of political glue that above all other alliances (eg military) says that such an event will never happen again. Its not perfect but its worked so far in increasing the trust between the major powers such as Germany, France & the UK.
For my money, almost any sacrifice on this or that issue fades before the notion of a European civil war. Never again no matter what.
FWIW: go live & work outside the UK for a couple of years and willy nilly the importance of national ie. local issues might also fade for you personally.
But nothing comes close in importance to maintaining a peaceful Europe - nothing.
Its been noted in a few places that this debate about Europe has heightened coincidentally with the anniversary of WW1.
The EU is a kind of political glue that above all other alliances (eg military) says that such an event will never happen again. Its not perfect but its worked so far in increasing the trust between the major powers such as Germany, France & the UK.
For my money, almost any sacrifice on this or that issue fades before the notion of a European civil war. Never again no matter what.
FWIW: go live & work outside the UK for a couple of years and willy nilly the importance of national ie. local issues might also fade for you personally.
Hard cases make poor laws is a legal truism thats been around forever because its true and it works in practice.
The UKIP voters have indeed had a raw deal but in the 20thC the labour party once or twice found itself in that position. Its happened before in the US presidential elections.
This unfairness for some will most probably happen again but it would be foolish to interfere with a political system thats provided a democracy of sorts on the basis of occasional unfairness.
Something to keep in mind is, to leave this page a little, that the UKIP mentality in the USA provided the justifiers and instigators of the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan with a political philosophy that the majority of American voters agreed with until the realities of such wars set in. Ask them now?
The UKIP voters have indeed had a raw deal but in the 20thC the labour party once or twice found itself in that position. Its happened before in the US presidential elections.
This unfairness for some will most probably happen again but it would be foolish to interfere with a political system thats provided a democracy of sorts on the basis of occasional unfairness.
Something to keep in mind is, to leave this page a little, that the UKIP mentality in the USA provided the justifiers and instigators of the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan with a political philosophy that the majority of American voters agreed with until the realities of such wars set in. Ask them now?
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The European alliance hasn't done a very good job at keeping the peace in Europe.
Bosnia, Romania, Ukraine !!
Bloody good job we have NATO...For what it's worth !1
Bosnia, Romania, Ukraine !!
Bloody good job we have NATO...For what it's worth !1
You're post was in reply/response to mine and I was.Who's talking about Scotland?Ah, but you are looking at it from the UKIP point of view.Edit: That's 37% of the 66% who voted.
I don't think it would have affected Scotland as there were only two runners in the referendum and the SNP had around 50% (of the votes) in the general election.
(So, did they only get 50% of 66%?)
The 37% of 66% referred to the number who voted Conservative.
Please try to keep up.
No wonder it's difficult to keep up.
Scotland also has a conservative government elected by 37% of 66% of the voters of the country to which they wish to belong.
You're post was in reply/response to mine and I was.Who's talking about Scotland?Ah, but you are looking at it from the UKIP point of view.Edit: That's 37% of the 66% who voted.
I don't think it would have affected Scotland as there were only two runners in the referendum and the SNP had around 50% (of the votes) in the general election.
(So, did they only get 50% of 66%?)
The 37% of 66% referred to the number who voted Conservative.
Please try to keep up.
No wonder it's difficult to keep up.
Scotland also has a conservative government elected by 37% of 66% of the voters of the country to which they wish to belong.
But I was responding to the final line in your post:
"The trouble with democracy is the result is not always of your choosing."
which I took to be a general comment.
I probably wouldn't have bothered to reply anyway if you hadn't called me a 'numpty'.
The EU certainly is a kind of political glue. It's almost like Araldite and equally difficult to get out of once in.
Looking at it in the context of the Second World War is very appropriate, actually. In 1939 (not 1942 btw!
) another certain gentleman had the bright idea of taking over the whole of Europe. The current peaceful takeover seems to be meeting with more success!My personal opinion is that a combination of NATO membership and the possession of nuclear (not nuckilar
) weapons is the real reason we have not had another pan-European war.I have, and it made no difference to my opinions, I assure you.
(Apologies for the digs
btw!)
The EU was created in 1993, I was not aware we were at constant war before that date?
Not me. I never cast nasturtiums.I probably wouldn't have bothered to reply anyway if you hadn't called me a 'numpty'.
Cast them my way. My first wife likes nasturtiums!
CylonRaider,
My point was European civil war involving the great powers.
If the EU collapses then the USA will be tempted to withdraw and face the Pacific - roughly speaking its stance prior to 1914.
If the US goes then rest assured that NATO will go next. Then what?
My point was European civil war involving the great powers.
If the EU collapses then the USA will be tempted to withdraw and face the Pacific - roughly speaking its stance prior to 1914.
If the US goes then rest assured that NATO will go next. Then what?
micilin,
Yes, it will be a permanent unfairness. All attempts at a more balanced democracy have been found to have built-in flaws: in a word "unfairness".
This has been roughly masked by the essentially two party UK system but with the latest developements cracks that were always there have begun to show.
Thing is, if you meddle with the present arrangements then many and variable unknowns might come out of the political woodwork.
Yes, it will be a permanent unfairness. All attempts at a more balanced democracy have been found to have built-in flaws: in a word "unfairness".
This has been roughly masked by the essentially two party UK system but with the latest developements cracks that were always there have begun to show.
Thing is, if you meddle with the present arrangements then many and variable unknowns might come out of the political woodwork.
JBR,
Pearl Harbor was in 1941.
Napoleon tried to form an European Union of sorts even earlier.
The world political map and the world wars of the 20thC until today (including Iraq & Afghanistan & Isis) can most all be directly traced back to August 1914.
Are you saying that post 1945, war between France & Germany has been prevented by NATO and nuclear weapons? How bizarre. NATO until 1991 was essentially the USA. NATO and nuclear weapons were pointed at the USSR.
I'm sorry that foreign experience has not broadened the mind.
You have nothing to apologise for - your date for WWII's most significant event is wrong.
Pearl Harbor was in 1941.
Napoleon tried to form an European Union of sorts even earlier.
The world political map and the world wars of the 20thC until today (including Iraq & Afghanistan & Isis) can most all be directly traced back to August 1914.
Are you saying that post 1945, war between France & Germany has been prevented by NATO and nuclear weapons? How bizarre. NATO until 1991 was essentially the USA. NATO and nuclear weapons were pointed at the USSR.
I'm sorry that foreign experience has not broadened the mind.
You have nothing to apologise for - your date for WWII's most significant event is wrong.
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