European Referendum

[ree]

AronSearle,

Neither was i. What is your point? My point is the post war cooperation of Europe's traditional antagonists - the great powers that repeatedly engaged in Euro civil war.

 

[JBR]

JBR,

Pearl Harbor was in 1941.

What has Pearl Harbour got to do with the unity of Europe?

Napoleon tried to form an European Union of sorts even earlier.

Yes, and look what happened to him.

The world political map and the world wars of the 20thC until today (including Iraq & Afghanistan & Isis) can most all be directly traced back to August 1914.

Are you saying that post 1945, war between France & Germany has been prevented by NATO and nuclear weapons? How bizarre. NATO until 1991 was essentially the USA. NATO and nuclear weapons were pointed at the USSR.

Bizarre? France, Germany and ourselves (along with several other nations) have been united in defence long before the EU Empire came along. In a way, we can also thank Russia for peace in Europe until recently as that is why NATO was formed. Any fighting between Western European countries would have weakened them all, inviting Russia to intervene and ultimately take over.
I still maintain that NATO (and the Russian bear) is responsible for the avoidance of another 'world war' and not the EU. The EU was originally a free-trade organisation, and there is nothing wrong with that, but its attempt to become a political dictatorship is not to my liking.

I'm sorry that foreign experience has not broadened the mind.

In my experience, Americans are the least broad minded and the most insular people in the world!

You have nothing to apologise for - your date for WWII's most significant event is wrong.

You must mean Hitler's invasion of Poland.

 

[AronSearle]

Neither was i. What is your point? My point is the post war cooperation of Europe's traditional antagonists - the great powers that repeatedly engaged in Euro civil war.

But the EU did not exist until 1993.

So please explain what the EU has to do with post war peace as per your statement?

The EU is a kind of political glue that above all other alliances (eg military) says that such an event will never happen again. Its not perfect but its worked so far in increasing the trust between the major powers such as Germany, France & the UK.

 

[ree]

JBR,

You introduced the date 1942, presumably thinking to have a dig at America's so called late entry into WWII - unfortunately you got the date wrong.

In 1941 the USA entered the world once again and post 1945 provided for the protection and resurrection of Europe.

Napoleon & Hitler attempted to create a union by force - the attempts failed of course.

"bizarre etc." you dont respond to what i wrote. What you do in a round about way is to confirm what i argued. Think about it.

The EU cannot be defined as an "empire". Neither can it be labelled an attempt at "dictatorship" - use of such terms is to falsify your argument.

How do you know that "Americans are the least broadminded"? Have you interviewed them all?

Wrong. America's entry into WWII was the most significant international event since 1914.
Do you know of any experts who refer to the 20thC as the German century? Did Germany ever use nuclear weapons?

 

[ree]

AronSearle,

I use the term EU as shorthand for all the cooperation since 1951 that solidified to a more political union in 1993. But union of sorts had been ongoing since 1951, and 1993 was merely another major amendment.

Post the Congress of Vienna, 19thC European civil wars were limited compared to the previous centuries. Post 1945 the European community powers have shunned European civil war as a means to ends by using political & economic ties for an interlinked interdependence.

Adenauer & De Gaulle and their successors have publicly claimed in major statements on European unity that first and foremost comes peace and cooperation.
German unity was achieved, in spite of British alarm, with the blessing of the EU - not a life was lost.

 

[JBR]

Ree

I may be completely wrong, but have you recently moved to America from France?
And were you once called RNReindeer?

 

[Brigadier]

Nah - too many thanks!

 

[Micilin]

AronSearle,

I use the term EU as shorthand for all the cooperation since 1951 that solidified to a more political union in 1993. But union of sorts had been ongoing since 1951, and 1993 was merely another major amendment.

Post the Congress of Vienna, 19thC European civil wars were limited compared to the previous centuries. Post 1945 the European community powers have shunned European civil war as a means to ends by using political & economic ties for an interlinked interdependence.

Adenauer & De Gaulle and their successors have publicly claimed in major statements on European unity that first and foremost comes peace and cooperation.
German unity was achieved, in spite of British alarm, with the blessing of the EU - not a life was lost.

Not for the first time here, I'm a bit taken aback that people date the 'European Project' from when it was named 'EU 'and yet go on to discussi history with such confidence.

I thought those with a basic grasp of modern European history would know why the European Coal and Steel Community was set up, and the thread that runs through the EEC, EC and so on.

 

[ree]

Micilin,

With respects, but i dont understand your above comment - perhaps you could enlarge what you wrote?

 

[ree]

JBR,

I took the trouble to give you a detailed reply. What does your reply mean?

 

[Micilin]

Micilin,

With respects, but i dont understand your above comment - perhaps you could enlarge what you wrote?

Simply put, I am amazed that some people who discuss the EU think it sprang into existence in 1993.

 

[AronSearle]

Micilin,

With respects, but i dont understand your above comment - perhaps you could enlarge what you wrote?

Simply put, I am amazed that some people who discuss the EU think it sprang into existence in 1993.

Hurr durr.

The specific legal entity the 'EU' did not exist until 1993, of course their were events and institutions preceding that, but they were not the EU .

And it was the treaties signed for the creation of the EU that bought about, amongst many other items, the EURO and free movement of people. Those specific issues being a thorn.

And it is the EU we want to have a referendum on leaving, the very specific institution, not 'Europe'.

 

[ree]

Micilin,

Thank you for the explanation - i thought that's what you meant but wasn't sure.

 

[Norcon]

The countries of Europe will always be our trading partners. Always have been and always will be.
Especially so since we buy more from them.

Its the likes of baruso and von rumpoy we want rid off.
von rumpoy will receive £500,000 of tax payers money over the next few years for doing sweet fa.
And gold plated pension for his remaining years left.

 

[ree]

Norcon,

Fair enough, chase the rascals out but dont throw the baby out with the dirty water. Fat cats, corruption, & hard faced men who do well out of misery have always been with us. Remember Christ chasing the money lenders out of the Temple - they came back.We should make better arrangements but most new "arrangements" tend to involve more bureaucracy.

Once again, hard cases make poor laws. After drastic changes things often turn out far worse than before. FWIW: Tabloid hysteria about this or that "eurocrat" is rarely accurate reporting.

If we renounce our treaty obligations then, if the EU remains in force, we will definitely find selling goods to them far harder and expensive, and there is the greatest threat - full of unknowns - of what happens now with the financial & stock markets?

Britain like the US is a remittance arrangement - we live on magic money. Break the spell and all economic hell could break loose.