Flexible flue - is this as complete a bodge as I think it is

[Safety First]

Yes yes, but what is ID?

 

[spareshunter]

ID = Immediately dangerous.

When an ID situation has been identified the appliance must be CAPPED off and disabled from further use until the situation is rectified and passed as safe to use by a RGI Registered Gas Installer.

 

[SimonH2]

Are you serious on the content of your last post?

Yes. I am completely serious.

You can think what you want, but at the moment you are simply demonstrating an inability to think and apply logic.

Note that I'm not suggesting it's not cause for concern, and I'm not suggesting that there's any chance of the appliance getting reconnected before the flue is fixed, but I am suggesting that it's not an "OH MY GOD WE'RE GONNA DIE WITHIN SECONDS" situation. Sorry, but an unthinking approach to risk management is half the problem with "elf'n'safety".

Before you shout me down during apoplectic fits, just remember this : the same property has TWO gas appliances, of greater output, which by design vent all their POCs into the living space. That is very common and yet I don't see discussions about such appliances getting responses like "Are you serious".

When an ID situation has been identified the appliance must be CAPPED off and disabled from further use until the situation is rectified and passed as safe to use by a RGI Registered Gas Installer.

Actually, if you are going to quote rules, you would do well to get them right - which you haven't in this case.

 

[spareshunter]

Actually, if you are going to quote rules, you would do well to get them right - which you haven't in this case.

Are you sure on the above and still serious of your previous comments?

 

[spareshunter]

Apoplectic fit will read disappointing reply or I will at least try.

 

[spareshunter]

Hi magiclintel would you like to know what GSIUR is?

 

[spareshunter]

Hi magiclintal, just for the curious as I know you are, do you know what HSAW stands for?

 

[Steelmasons]

SimonH2.

GIUSP 7.1 states 'products of combustion leaking into buildings including flues terminating into loft space'.....

ID/RIDDOR.

Dos not matter whether appliance is used on a regular basis or not.

 

[spareshunter]

Hi magiclintel, another two, GIUSP and RIDDOR. just to keep you up to speed when following this thread.

GSIUR = The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998

GSIUP = Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure.

RIDDOR = The Reporting of Injuries , Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995

HSWA = The Health & Safety at Work Act. 1974

Of course SimonH2 is aware all these as reflected in his posts of late. Bless

 

[SimonH2]

Actually, if you are going to quote rules, you would do well to get them right - which you haven't in this case.

Are you sure on the above and still serious of your previous comments?

Yes and yes.

GIUSP 7.1 states 'products of combustion leaking into buildings including flues terminating into loft space'.....

ID/RIDDOR.

Dos not matter whether appliance is used on a regular basis or not.

Did I say otherwise ? No. So relevance ?

Of course SimonH2 is aware all these as reflected in his posts of late. Bless

Have you heard an expression about casting stones ? You made a false statement (typical of those in the gas industry, and not unlike some of the false statements made by trade bodies/their members in other trades), I've picked you up on it, and rather than justify your statement you then start throwing stones.


As you are so certain, you'll have no problem showing everyone where the law states that "When an ID situation has been identified the appliance must be CAPPED off and disabled from further use until the situation is rectified and passed as safe to use by a RGI Registered Gas Installer."
I'll go and get some popcorn, I think it might be a long wait.

Tell you what, I'll make it more fun, I'll allow you to quote "official guidance" (eg GIUSP) even where it isn't the law. I'll give you hints, see sections 1, 3.4 (fig 1), tail end of 4.1, 6.3.

 

[Steelmasons]

****.

 

[spareshunter]

Disclaimer: I'm not a professional spark, I'm not a professional plumber. Just a keen amateur.

The latter is what you admit to a “keen” amateur and nothing wrong with that per say. sorry but you are putting yourself in the same category as your installers with that aggressive manner of your last post, which is a shame seeing as I thought you were of the discerning type. As “keen” amateur you should listen to others more qualified who give you sound advice and be glad of it that I assume is why you put the post up in the first place. I am a professional gas fitter registered with Gas Safe also I have a GS ticket for gas fires and you are totally wrong in your stance. I am going to give you good advice take heed or not as your will.

You have no perception of what products of combustion are and the effects of their release into the near environment from their source especially when confined within a space.

If the fire in question was used in the situation you have described with corroboration of the added photos, even for a short time the potentiality of a serious incident occurring is very high. Believe it or not it can take a minimum of one to three minutes to die in the wrong conditions with a blood saturation of 85-95%.

One thing is clear you do not understand the workings of a flue, more importantly the composition of products of combustion in relation to the burning of any fossil fuel. The reasons you put forward for safety are totally preposterous and I think you ought to stand back and dwell upon your misguided comments for a while.

I doubt whether you have heard of Vitiation, down draught, passive ventilation and advantageous air, a few for starters.

Do you know what the safe level of ventilation is required for the safe evacuation of products of combustion in any confined roof space in relation to; the ratio of square area to ventilation allowance of said roof space, making allowance for the Kw output of any open flued fire when operating “without” the aid of an open flue of the correct diameter evacuating said fumes to the atmosphere?
Answer; I will save you the bother of a more stupid, embarrassing and death defying reply, in short NONE.

The fact that you think that gas cannot make its way through minor gaps and cracks’ including plaster board is astonishing. To help you with this you will of course have to look at the recognised allowance percentage of advantages air per Kw in a room /dwelling before any ventilation is required in normal situations. That should tell you something about the relationship of gases and travel of gases through gaps however small.

Oh and do you have the ability to control someone’s actions in your absence not to leave a gas fire on 24/7 when the weather gets cold and the boiler packs up. Happened before in same property remember, boiler packing up that is, the rest I doubt if we will ever know.

If you want some more sound advice on flueless gas fires I suggest you be a little bit more tolerant in replies because you might not like what you are going to hear on the assumption of your attitude to your previous flue installations. Also change your gas fitter.


PS. I would also change your disclaimer to get a little more credibility but alas it may be too late.

 

[spareshunter]

As you are so certain, you'll have no problem showing everyone where the law states that "When an ID situation has been identified the appliance must be CAPPED off and disabled from further use until the situation is rectified and passed as safe to use by a RGI Registered Gas Installer."

No I won’t have a problem with the above that's for sure...(a later post I fear). If I met such an arrogant Land lord as yourself in such a situation I would ask you for the appliance to be capped off with your graceful permission of course.

If you refused, then no problem, your area gas network supplier would visit within 2 - 4 hours of my phone call and ask for entry to cap the meter off, I might add it will be the meter that is capped off which includes the whole premises not the appliance. Refuse them? They have a statutory right to enter your property to do same.

Refuse that, especially with aggression? No problem, your area network gang with Kango etc will dig up the road and cap you off there, they won’t ask they just start. There is more, which I will leave for you to contemplate anyone allow it to get that far and beyond.

The last time an ass hole tried to be big time with the legislation which I was the starting point (a humble gas fitter) and put others lives at risk, the aforementioned was put in place, Reconnection to the gas supply in the road, as advised by Transco, as it was then, estimated a cost L/L £ 8800.00 (main road you see) to reinstate the road let alone further ongoing costs. The l/l at that point saw sense.

So live on in your dream world of putting other people’s lives at risk. Just to add, ID means just that the rest of the procedure just follows, everyone knows how to conduct such a situation........ it will be you who is new to it.

 

[SimonH2]

I am a professional gas fitter registered with Gas Safe also I have a GS ticket for gas fires ...

I wondered how long it would be before you played the "I'm qualified, treat my words as the word of God" card

You have no perception of what products of combustion are and the effects of their release into the near environment from their source especially when confined within a space.

Wrong. I do have a good idea. Do you want a discussion of how CO bonds with the haemoglobin in blood with a higher affinity than CO2, hence why it is so toxic - it accumulates and depletes the ability of the blood to carry oxygen. That's the primary risk. And no, I didn't have to look a word of that up.
However, the atmospheric level required for toxicity isn't zero - it's small but not zero. It also varies with time of exposure.

One thing is clear you do not understand the workings of a flue ...

Wrong again. Though it's a loooong time since I forgot the maths behind it.

The reasons you put forward for safety are totally preposterous and I think you ought to stand back and dwell upon your misguided comments for a while.

Just because I'm prepared to consider the various elements involved and actually THINK rather than blindly follow guidance. As I said, half the problem these days is people who can't or won't THINK - they just sheepishly follow a set of guidance with no concept whatsoever of the LEVEL of risk.

The fact that you think that gas cannot make its way through minor gaps and cracks’ including plaster board is astonishing.

It might be if I had actually written that - but as I didn't you are just digging yourself into a bigger hole - you know, that hole where you've decided I must be completely wrong and therefore you read into what I write anything that will support that.

Repeat of what I wrote before. I have not at any time suggested that continued use of the appliance would be acceptable. Never, not once - which may be a surprise to you since you have determined that I must be suggesting that.


What I did suggest was that, all things considered, the level of risk while the appliance was in that state would not have been the "turn on appliance, everyone dead in minutes" level. Several mitigating factors would have reduced the risk level considerably from that - you may not like the application of reasoning, but that's you problem not mine.

If you want some more sound advice on flueless gas fires I suggest you be a little bit more tolerant in replies because you might not like what you are going to hear on the assumption of your attitude to your previous flue installations.

Again, you are reading into what I wrote something which I never said or implied. You made a statement which is not true. I picked you up on it, you have taken the huff that a "non professional" dare question you as a qualified person and are desperate to find things you can criticise me for.

Also change your gas fitter.

Interesting, so being GS registered isn't indicative of being competent to work on gas systems then - that seems to be what you are suggesting.

But there is some more on that which I was considering whether to write or not (yet). Next post I think since you've brought it up.

As you are so certain, you'll have no problem showing everyone where the law states that "When an ID situation has been identified the appliance must be CAPPED off and disabled from further use until the situation is rectified and passed as safe to use by a RGI Registered Gas Installer."

No I won’t have a problem with the above that's for sure...(a later post I fear).

So that's a "no I can't" then, or you'd have quoted it already.

If I met such an arrogant Land lord as yourself in such a situation I would ask you for the appliance to be capped off with your graceful permission of course.

What, you mean you don't have the legal right to do it there and then like you implied you did ?

And please look back through the thread that you've barged into with your "I'm an RGI, take my word like that of God" attitude, and please highlight anywhere where I even suggested that shutting off the supply to the appliance was not the correct thing to do. Please go and do it now, you won't find it because I didn't. I don't suppose you'll apologise for falsely accusing me of making statements or having a stance that I didn't.

For the avoidance of doubt, the gas to the appliance was turned off (using it's service valve rather than the higher risk option of disturbing the pipework).

If you refused

Which I didn't, and wouldn't - that's just your imagination.

So live on in your dream world of putting other people’s lives at risk.

Again, stop with the accusations of things I have not said or done. I don't suppose you'll be prepared to apologise for it though.

Just to add, ID means just that the rest of the procedure just follows, everyone knows how to conduct such a situation........ it will be you who is new to it.

No, it's not new to me. That's only in your imagination.

 

[SimonH2]

Since spareshunter brought it up ...

Also change your gas fitter.

I did a bit of looking up prior to going to see the people who did the work, and hopefully put one of the directors on the spot. I won't say more than they are a long established outfit, with (as far as I can tell) a reasonably good reputation. Certainly not one man with a van.

A year or two ago, they split off the engineering side - so now there's the original company which has it's high street showroom and sells stuff, and the engineering side which does plumbing, heating, and gas work. The flue work was done before the split.

What is interesting is that the sales part have on their website a statement that they can sell and install all appliances, and the GS logo. There's a link to their engineering side website, but no statement there that they aren't themselves GS registered - I checked, they aren't. I suppose "we can install" could legitimately mean "we can get our other guys to install", but it's definitely misleading.

Now when I got the letter about the re-organisation I did wonder about the reasoning - though there can be legitimate business reasons. Now I find myself wondering if perhaps they lost their registration so were forced to setup a new business to carry on. That'll be one of the questions I'll be asking next week - not that I expect a straight answer !


BTW - I have no problems at all with the guy that comes and does the annual inspections - it's usually the same guy and I think that's all he does.