Foreigners and the NHS

[Doggit]

poor old dog unable to form a coherent statement falls back on abuse

No John, just getting fed up with the never ending incessant littany of left wing remaining tripe that you constantly spew out. You started the spat stating that I didn't have the brains to understand what you were trying to say, so pot calling the kettle black is the comment that springs to mind.

 

[JohnD]

as per woodbines post, we probably coped pre EU by being able to produce enough home grown nurses to meet demand

No, forty years ago our hospitals were staffed with a lot of Commonwealth workers, and Irish nurses. Home grown did not meet demand.

 

[^woody^]

Of course there are. Must be dozens of suitable qualified nurses, fluent in English, in Somalia and Uzbekistan. I always found it strange that Quitters thought that resigning from the EU would put a stop to immigration. I dare say Woodbine's carers mostly come from Africa and the Philippines.

No doubt that's why farmers are not complaining that it's difficult to get seasonal workers since the Brexit vote and the rise of anti-foreigner attacks.

Oops, my mistake, they are.
https://www.ft.com/content/a95ecb20-bd66-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-issues-warning-potential-labour-shortage.htm

Crap.

You are posting a proposition that the NHS is going to be suffering a staffing crisis solely because of Brexit, and you fail to account for (/conveniently ignore) the thousands of non EU labour employed and available to the NHS, and you go on to specifically berate Somali and Uzbekistan citizens (and by implication other non-English first language, and non-EU people) and state that they won't be good enough to work within the NHS because English is not their first language.

You are a blinkered sad fellow.

 

[JohnD]

state that they won't be good enough to work within the NHS because English is not their first language.

I did not state that.

 

[JohnD]

You are posting a proposition that the NHS is going to be suffering a staffing crisis solely because of Brexit,

I did indeed point out that the increased number of attacks and abuse of foreigners, and a small number of murders, following the Brexit vote makes them less happy to continue living here.

Do you wish to deny it?

I pointed out that the NHS relies on a substantial number of foreign workers.

Do you wish to deny it?

I pointed out that far fewer of them are coming here to work.

Do you wish to deny it?

I pointed out that far more of them are leaving.

Do you wish to deny it?


And you call this crap, do you? Let's see you try to prove it wrong.

 

[Doggit]

The UK govenment has a bad habit of no only underestimating how many nurses and doctors we need, but knowing that it's economicaly cheaper to get them trained by other countries. The recent decision to charge nurses for their training was about the most stupid thing I've ever seen, but what people seem to forget, is that some of the doctors and nurses that we train, also go abroad to work, and that means they need replacing. The EU NHS workers that return home won't have too much of an effect, as they'll get suplemented by extra overtime, or agency nurses, but the lack of farm workers will cause a problem. They will have to increase the wages, and then put up the price of their produce, which will then lead to inflation, but will the british workers be prepared to do these jobs, so how many farms will go out of business as a result.

Bexit has caused problems, fears and attacks on foreigners, and for the latter, we should be ahamed, but things will settle down, they always do.

 

[Ihavenojob]

Perhaps the NHS should start doing apprenticeships. My work place does more than an apprenticeship, good pay for good training, on the understanding that if you leave within so many years of full qualification, you have to pay for your training.

 

[Doggit]

Technicaly, they used to do that as you'd train on the job, then training became more formal, then they decided that nurses needed degrees, yet most nurses with degrees seem to haughty to change bedpans, so now they have nursing assistants to do the menaial work. It seems like things are going backewards, or is that slightly skewiffed and sideways,

 

[blightymam]

If only you had the brains to read my post etc

And if you had the brains to realise etc

poor old dog unable to form a coherent statement falls back on abuse.

I thought Doggit just followed your example.

 

[blightymam]

What's the reason why nursing is unattractive to take as a job here? Is it because of the rubbish pay and the long hours? Hmmm.....
Perhaps if there is a shortage of nurses the government could change things to make the job more attractive. Or is that too simple an answer?

 

[Doggit]

Or is that too simple an answer?

If only.

Nursing used to be a vocation, but that's no longer the case; and I have no idea why they changed the parameters and criteria. I would certainly say that the NHS is in crisis, but not necessarily for the reasons they give. My daughter had to go in to A&E recently, and she was misshandled by the receptionist, but dealt with sensibly by the triage nurse. Her blood tests took ages to come back, and doctors kept coming and going with no real sense of purpose. You could see staff just wandering aimlessly back and forth, and when they finaly decided to take her up to a ward, it took over two hours to get her there, even though the ward was half empty. It was amazing to see how often the nurses and doctors just stood around talking, and there was never a sense of urgency at any point whatsoever. Her drip kept stopping and I worked out what was wrong even though the nurses couldn't.

They almost killed my mother when she went in a few years ago. A junior doctor ran a few tests, checked her medication, and then stopped it all beacuse he said she was alright. Except without her water pills and heart pills, she swelled and put on 2 stone, and it then took a hell of an argument to get her medicine reinstated. And the lack of medication caused her to go a bit dollaly, and she refused some of the medication that was making her sick, and rather change the initial medication, just stoped it altogether, and made her worse. And to top it all off, she had DNR notice, which they ignored when she had a seizure during the night. You really couldn't make the ineptitude up.

 

[JohnD]

Poor old dog has an obsessive quitter disorder which causes him to blindly deny the ill-effects of Quitting.

For example, here are some claims he has plucked from thin air:

Immigration from the EU won't fall for about 6 or 7 years,

and even then not much,

The current batch won't get shipped back

not that there's a crisis because EU nurses are going home,

 

[woodbine]

.................... Even though not many foreign workers have been murdered yet, ..............

NURSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn! There aren't any left to treat your paranoia. They've all gone back to Romania.

 

[Judy in the sky]

Nursing changed when the government (at the time) decided to make it a degree course. We know (well the majority of us) that you don't need a degree to be a nurse (didn't ever before). Nursing should be a vocational course. It really should be an apprenticeship, where school leavers/ learners get paid a wage whilst learning the job. Yes I have my degree, but the nursing profession should never have placed this requirement on itself (nah the government did) Stupid that they even considered this. Now we have the "re-validation",, another expense in time and resources placed upon nurses. (you don't want to know how many hours I spent on this (unpaid) to be re-validated this last few months). Plus the NMC charge us every year for our "pin numbers".
As far as I can see, the only EU nurses that have left the NHS are those who have been here for 10yrs plus and have made their money and decided to return home. Yes they've made £thousands out of the whole system, Working tax credit, Family working tax credit, Family allowance paid for children living back home (at the rate available in this country, not back home) Yes, the NHS is in crisis, but only one of government failure over the last 15-20 yrs or so.

 

[blightymam]

If only.

Nursing used to be a vocation, but that's no longer the case; and I have no idea why they changed the parameters and criteria. I would certainly say that the NHS is in crisis, but not necessarily for the reasons they give. My daughter had to go in to A&E recently, and she was misshandled by the receptionist, but dealt with sensibly by the triage nurse. Her blood tests took ages to come back, and doctors kept coming and going with no real sense of purpose. You could see staff just wandering aimlessly back and forth, and when they finaly decided to take her up to a ward, it took over two hours to get her there, even though the ward was half empty. It was amazing to see how often the nurses and doctors just stood around talking, and there was never a sense of urgency at any point whatsoever. Her drip kept stopping and I worked out what was wrong even though the nurses couldn't.

They almost killed my mother when she went in a few years ago. A junior doctor ran a few tests, checked her medication, and then stopped it all beacuse he said she was alright. Except without her water pills and heart pills, she swelled and put on 2 stone, and it then took a hell of an argument to get her medicine reinstated. And the lack of medication caused her to go a bit dollaly, and she refused some of the medication that was making her sick, and rather change the initial medication, just stoped it altogether, and made her worse. And to top it all off, she had DNR notice, which they ignored when she had a seizure during the night. You really couldn't make the ineptitude up.

Mistakes happen unfortunately, been misdiagnosed myself which left me with lifelong difficulties. My brother was also misdiagnosed with the big C, which then spread all over.

It will get worse of course, if you've a lack of docs and a system that is underfunded and understaffed.

Brexit - Of course it's not good if we lose good nurses and doctors but it's amusing how JohnD would rather look at just the one side and it does indeed show that he's somewhat obsessed about brexit.
I look at the fact that doctor training places were cut, leaving us the shortage we have now. Or that the nursing training places were cut by over 15% between 2009-13. Leaving us reliant more than ever on recruiting nurses and docs from abroad. I blame the way the government makes cuts to the NHS, and the short term planning.

Then as Judy says, why make nursing a degree? The government decided to charge for university, leaving many kids in debt. A low-paid nursing job isn't going to be as appealing when there is a debt to pay off (NHS bursaries end this year) nor the long 12hr shifts and the very unglamourous nature of the job.

No, I don't blame brexit for all the ills in the NHS, I blame the government. I don't see posts from JohnD lamenting about them and the lack of positive steps they are making to get the NHS out of this mess.....