Forum Attitude to Non-Notification

[JohnW2]

This is primarily a question for BAS (although comments/opinions from others would obviously be very welcome!)....

When you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say would be the way that you'd ensure compliance with Part P?

I have been waiting for best part of two years to see it happen, so that I could observe the answer myself, but no-one has yet been honest enough to oblige, and my patience is running out, so ...

BAS, if someone were to respond to your question with somethig along the lines of "It's really none of your business, but I haven't applied and have no intention of ever applying", how would you react/respond and, in particular, would you continue to answer/advise the OP in relation to the proposed work (or, at least, sit back quietly whilst others did)?

I am mindful of the fact that if it is clear that the OP is going to do the work and is not going to invoke the potential safeguard (up to a point!) of applying for Building Regs approval, that the only real hope for the work to be done at least reasonably (and hopefully fairly safely) might rely on whatever advice was offered by forum members (or members of some other forum) - and, ironically, that would become increasingly true as the individual's apparent level of ignorance or potential incompetence increased.

I obviously would agree that, where appropriate, we all should discourage people from doing things that they are clear not up to, but if they don't heed that advice and make it clear that they are going to go ahead with the work, without any oversight by LABC, what would you regard as 'the least of the evils'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ricicle]

Being a public forum following of the law must always be advised. Whether an individual follows that advice is their decision.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Only BAS knows

But to put my two penneth in, we can only advise we can not force!

 

[JohnW2]

Being a public forum following of the law must always be advised. Whether an individual follows that advice is their decision.

I agree totally, but that's not the question. Once we've established that someone is aware of the law and has been advised to follow it, but nevertheless has declared his/her intent to undertake notifiable work without seeking LABC assistance/approval, do we then do what we can to improve the chances of that work being done reasonably/safely - or do we 'wash our hands' of involvement?

.. and, of course, I am not talking about a hypothetical situation. We all know jolly well that it is a situation we are observing on a very regular, perhaps almost daily, basis in the forum, even though no-one ever admits it!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

But to put my two penneth in, we can only advise we can not force!

Sure, but if we are told that our advice to seek BR approval is being ignored (ehich is obviously an OP's prerogative), do we then do our best to advise how the work should be done (given that the OP is going to be getting no such advice from anywhere else)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Sure, but if we are told that our advice to seek BR approval is being ignored (ehich is obviously an OP's prerogative), do we then do our best to advise how the work should be done (given that the OP is going to be getting no such advice from anywhere else)?

If an OP stated categorically, that they had no intention of notifying notifiable work. Then I would be reluctant to offer advice on the methods that should be used.

 

[virgilns]

I've had the local inspector round to look at some work I'm planning on doing in the bathroom. Asked about the possibility of doing the work myself under BC supervision and they just said that as long as it was tested and certified then they were happy.

As far as notifying or not for notifiable work...I guess there are levels of 'it's a bit naughty, but probably quite safe' for joe public to do x through to 'err..you really should be understanding what you're doing there before you get the screwdriver out'

I'm guessing that the highest risk lies in bad or non existent planning and sizing / protection provision than actually laying the cable and screwing a clamp down? Please don't think i'm belittling the work of a spark...i fully respect the years of knowledge built up and changes to keep track of.

If by giving advice you feel there's more likely hood that DIY joe will now have a half hearted crack and cock it up rather than just get a spark in, then I'd probably be worried...the difficulty is not knowing if the DIYer is actually very competent and safe minded and could realistically add a socket into an existing ring, or if they'd fry them self as soon as they change a 13amp plug

For the record, please don't stop giving (me) advice

 

[ericmark]

Where we get the "Can I" or "Would it be all right" or "Is it allowed" then to quote Part P, J, and K all makes sense. They have asked so we must tell them.

However I really don't what to know. I some one was to say I am not doing Part P then it would leave us with a little problem but where they say nothing then I think to assume they know all about it I would say is likely the best method.

Once we say "Do it right or don't do it" then we may as well close the forum. It is unlikely any DIY man or woman will have earth loop impedance, high ohm meters, low ohm meters or RCD testers and to be frank they are far more important than bits of paper issued by the council.

When we see the head lines "Building Control taken to court for allowing sub standard work to go ahead" then I will agree with the whole idea of the council checking the work. But we all watch the assortment of builders from hell TV shows and with each one the question has to be where was the LABC while all this was going on.

I saw how they tested my work and again to be frank they didn't test a thing. So in real terms it's just a money making exercise for the council.

Seems the English system is to be reviewed but the Welsh will be left as it is. Not sure about the legal position as I have yet to find any Welsh documents so likely not valid anyway?

 

[JohnW2]

If an OP stated categorically, that they had no intention of notifying notifiable work. Then I would be reluctant to offer advice on the methods that should be used.

If that is the case, don't you accept that you are almost certainly fooling yourself into acting contrary to your views at least some of the time? Sure, as I said, no-one "states categorically" that they have no intention of notifying notifiable work, but you must surely accept that, even when not stated, this is probably what is going to happen in a good few cases in relation to which you do offer advice?

Whilst many people's first reaction would probably be like yours, as I said, the irony is that it's the people who are going to undertake notifiable work without LABC involvement who probably most 'need' (and might most benefit from, and work more safely as a result of) advice from places like this - so the 'morality'of the situation is far from clear cut.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As far as notifying or not for notifiable work...I guess there are levels of 'it's a bit naughty, but probably quite safe' for joe public to do x through to 'err..you really should be understanding what you're doing there before you get the screwdriver out'

Indeed - but, stated as you've done (very reasonably) these are (crucial) judgements about the nature of the work in relation to the individual's knowledge, competence and resources - not about the bureaucracy of notification. My personal view that, given this is a DIY forum, those contemplating giving advice should work on the basis of the former, not latter, of those considerations. In fact, I don't think whether or not the individual intends to notify the work should come into the equation at all (once they they have been made aware of their 'legal obligation' to notify). That's why I've been intrigued to know how BAS would react if someone responed to his oft-asked question with "Yes, I know I'm legally obliged to notify, but I'm not going to".

It can work all ways. There are people who ask questions about non-notifiable work that they are clearly not capable of undertaking reasonably or safely - and they certainly need to be discouraged. On the other hand, there are those who (on the basis of what they write) are probably reasonably capable of undertaking the notifiable work they ask about, but just need a little advice, and I wouldn't personally deny them that advice just because I knew they were not going to notify.

For the record, please don't stop giving (me) advice

We'll try not to

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

I suppose a supplementary question could be: -
What increases safety more; good advice or making sure the paperwork is correct?

Before Part P, was it any more unsafe than now, were there any more cases of death & injury before now?

I well remember when I first joined and was pointing out the DNO view on some subjects how some of the "Must comply with Part P & BS 7671" brigade would argue against DNO requirements as they didn't agree!

 

[JohnW2]

I suppose a supplementary question could be: - What increases safety more; good advice or making sure the paperwork is correct?

Quite so, and I think you'll know what my answer (and probably yours!) would be.

Worse, we are (as I expected) seeing some suggesting that the good advice should perhaps not be given if the paperwork is not correct - which, given my personal view on the answer to your supplementary question, seems to be 'adding insult to injury'(denying advice to those who may most need it) and hence the antithesis of safety-based common sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[cydodimead]

Interesting reading JohnW2 so I thought you may be interested in a true story regarding Part P and the law. A friend of mine (no really it is a friend I'm not talking about myself in third person) is a qualified electrician but is NOT part of a registered part P scheme such as NICEIC or NAPIT. He rewired his flat and tested the installation along with notes installation methods and some circuit diagrams etc. His freeholder (who had a flat in the same block) was a crazy woman who caused him no end of problems over the years prior to the electrical work. In the end he decided to move after carrying out the work and rented the flat out. The freeholder complained to the council and said that the property was electrically unsafe for the tenants as he did all the work himself (she was unaware he was a qualified electrician). In the end the case made it to court where he stoad up and admitted he had carried out the work without notifying building control or being part of a registered scheme. His defence was his qualifications and test certificates. The judge ruled in favour of my friend and the installation was allowed to remain.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

When you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say would be the way that you'd ensure compliance with Part P?

Which the OP hasn't answered.

But then he took no notice of anything I wrote, because after I had answered his question he asked it all over again.

BAS, if someone were to respond to your question with somethig along the lines of "It's really none of your business, but I haven't applied and have no intention of ever applying", how would you react/respond and, in particular, would you continue to answer/advise the OP in relation to the proposed work (or, at least, sit back quietly whilst others did)?

It's no skin off my nose if they don't notify.

I start with the reasonable position that people are law-abiding, hence the question. As we often see people thinking they can "get an electrician to make the final connections/test it and certify", it's important to establish what they are doing about notification, so rather than a 2-stage question, beginning "Did you notify?", which will then only lead to "What did you say would be the way that you'd ensure compliance with Part P?" if they say "Yes", it seems quicker to go straight for that. As getting an electrician in to make the final connections, or test it, and certify is not how it works it might be important to establish that right at the start, as it could be that the advice has to be "let your electrician do that", or "you must ask your electrician".

It is quite common for LABCs to assume that electrical work will be done by a registered electrician, or by one qualified to issue BS 7671 EICs, and this assumption can be built into applications for approval for wider work, or it can be put into applications made by an architect/builder/structural engineer/architectural technician on behalf of the homeowner.

We've had at least one person fetch up here who, by default/neglect "told" his LABC that he would be using a qualified electrician, and then went ahead and DIY'd, and as I recall the words "rock" and "hard place" were apposite as he then tried to get a completion certificate out of his LABC.

If you tell them one thing when you notify and then do something different, it can all go horribly pear shaped at the end.


As for giving advice to people who aren't going to notify, their non-notification is never a factor. What concerns me is whether they can do the job properly, and as I'm sure you must have noticed by now, I do not believe that DIYers should work to lower standards than professional electricians.

I do not believe that people should take it on themselves to design and install circuits unless they actually know how to do every aspect of it properly.

I do not believe that they should take it on themselves to do work which requires testing unless they are able to test it.

And so on.


This is why I often tell people that they must have a true and genuine understanding of what they are doing, and not just follow instructions to put this wire in that hole without knowing why.

This is why when someone asks what size cable to use, rather than doing something which they have decided they wish to be responsible for and tell them what size I will give them the information they need to gain an understanding of how to size it themselves and then do it themselves.

This is a Do It Yourself website, not an Ask Someone To Do It For You one.

I am mindful of the fact that if it is clear that the OP is going to do the work and is not going to invoke the potential safeguard (up to a point!) of applying for Building Regs approval, that the only real hope for the work to be done at least reasonably (and hopefully fairly safely) might rely on whatever advice was offered by forum members (or members of some other forum) - and, ironically, that would become increasingly true as the individual's apparent level of ignorance or potential incompetence increased.

And this is an area where we differ.

If people are not competent then I am utterly convinced that they should not be encouraged to do anything other than get an electrician, and that anybody who tries to remotely help them continue their ignorant bumblings does not truly have their best interests at heart and is dangerously irresponsible.

I obviously would agree that, where appropriate, we all should discourage people from doing things that they are clear not up to, but if they don't heed that advice and make it clear that they are going to go ahead with the work, without any oversight by LABC, what would you regard as 'the least of the evils'?

I have not the tiniest doubt whatsoever that the least of evils is to refuse to tell them anything other than "get an electrician", and that the most monstrous of evils is to tell them to carry on doing things which are outwith their competence and understanding.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In the end the case made it to court.

A civil action by the freeholder I trust. Hopefully no public body would have been mad enough to try for a criminal prosecution.