We need to talk about Kevin, sorry, I mean ban-all-sheds

I'm going to weigh in here and no doubt receive criticism...
It depends what is meant by DIY.

Anything can be done by anyone but that is not what is meant by DIY.

That most electrical jobs can be done with a screw driver and a pair of scissors does not mean it is correct.

Replacing a shower switch with little knowledge can result in being helped with how to do it but running a supply to a detached garage is beyond the scope of a DIY forum and cannot be achieved without each and every step being explained and the necessary equipment.
Whether you think it the responsibility of us from now on because we have been asked or the person going ahead after being told to get an electrician is up to you.
 
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If I read his personality/psychology correctly,
Which you don't.


I would suspect that he will be delighted to see a thread about himself, regardless of the content, not to mention the ego-boost he undoubtedly gets from seeing some of his supporters creep out of cracks in the woodwork :)
There's something badly broken in your critical faculties apparatus. I am neither delighted nor upset - I am well used to the pathetic, childish, ignorant whining from you and your fellow travellers.
 
There's something badly broken in your critical faculties apparatus. I am neither delighted nor upset ...
Fair enough. Although we are obviously different in many ways, if it were me I would be quite 'chuffed' to see a thread about myself, even if it included (or even 'majored on') 'negative' comments - since that would at least indicate that people were 'taking notice' of me. What probably would frustrate, annoy or maybe even upset me a little (and, I suspect, probably also you) would be if people seemed to be totally ignoring me, and what I said/wrote.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm sure there are many who have pretty well much abandoned this part of DIYnot.

Ban might be a smart lad, my problem is that he is too smart for his own good and replaces thought and knowledge with sarcasm and vitriol. After a while I got fed up with it and have chosen to avoid posting wholly because of his negative vib.
 
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With electrics, they are dangerous, life threatening and BAS takes the attitude that if he doesn't advise or sits there telling people they need an electrician... And being frank with them that they will then go out and get an electrician.... But in reality WRONG.
It's not my fault if they reject good advice and do the wrong thing.


People I have found if they are adement enough to do it themselves regardless of their level of knowledge and safety aspects they will do so..and telling them they don't know what they are doing, get an electrician, and making frank remarks picking at their knowledge is in no way going to change their decision to do it themselves.
And being an opportunist and deciding therefore to encourage them is wrong.


So doing what he thinks is right, and probably is right is not the right thing to be doing on here!
Yes it is.


A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing... But people come on here to increase that knowledge and help them do it safely.

By picking at the holes in their knowledge and refusing help they are then going to continue with that little knowledge and along the path of it being dangerous... But with a little extra knowledge they will do it safer than it would of been.
And helping people to find where to gain that extra knowledge so that they acquire a genuine understanding and become safe is what I do all the time, and it's what I'm criticised for doing by those who think that people asking for help should just be used as a pair of remote hands.


BAS fails to see this often, he thinks he's doing the right thing... And if I'm honest it is the right thing to try and discourage people
I don't try to discourage anybody, per se. On the contrary, I encourage people to gain knowledge and take responsibility. Those I discourage are the ones who don't want to learn what they need to know in order to competently do what they have decided they want to do.


But if he doesn't want to put it to use helping people because he brands every diver incompetant
I don't brand everyone that - only the incompetent ones. And "branding" is not an appropriate term -incompetence is not a character defect - it's a straightforward state which can be remedied.


But in the real world and reality, you have to remember this is a DIY forum and people if they wanted to get an electrician they would have instead of attempting it themselves and finding themselves on here asking for advice and BAS picking at their knowledge and basically saying NO this is wrong you have no idea what you are doing,
It is very important that people be told if they are wrong and ignorant, so that they know what they need to learn.

Because this is indeed a DIY site, and my position is that they should do it themselves. So if they have decided that they want to install a supply to an outbuilding for example, then they should do it themselves, and that means that they should learn how to design it, not ask people here to design it for them. That's not DIY, any more than assembling a chest of drawers from Ikea makes you a cabinet maker.

Have you really not noticed the number of times I've advised people who've got into a mess with their lights that calling an electrician is one solution, but that Plan A is to learn what they need to know, and resolve the problem themselves?


He doesn't consider that sometimes people don't get electricians in for a reason.
The reason is irrelevant. Whether someone chooses or is forced to not use one has no bearing on the need for them to therefore know what they are doing.


It's not nice being bluntly branded incompetent
If I started asking questions on a sailing forum because I'd decided to go off on a yachting holiday, or to sail the channel because I couldn't afford a boat fare, why on earth would I object to being tol, quite rightly, that I was incompetent, and needed to learn a great deal more before I could just cast off and hoist a sale?
 
Damn it..as annoying and arrogant as BAS can be..no sane person can challenge that post.

What he has said is 100% correct. Could he sometimes moderate his picky and annoying ways...of course..but that post kills any arguments dead.

Damn I hate to say this...Great post BAS.
 
Damn it..as annoying and arrogant as BAS can be..no sane person can challenge that post. What he has said is 100% correct. Could he sometimes moderate his picky and annoying ways...of course..but that post kills any arguments dead.
It is a viewpoint (which has been discussed to death here over the years), but it certainly doesn't kill other viewpoints dead.

It is a view that says that, once one has done the responsible thing, satisfying one's sense of responsibility and one's conscience, by telling someone what knowledge, skills and equipment, they should acquire before tackling a task (aka giving the "only appropriate advice") (or maybe telling them that they should not be tackling the task at all), it is "not one's problem" (and, by implication, not an issue in terms of one's responsibility or conscience) if they choose not to heed that particular advice and, instead, go off and and do potentially dangerous things, unaided by any potential 'safer-making' specific advice they could have been given. I agree that some people, but not everyone, take that view.

A very common situation is for an OP to come here because (s)he has been playing with lighting switches, fittings or circuits and cannot get their light(s) to work, and hence come asking for urgent advice as to what to do. With the best will in the world, someone with such an immediate problem is not going to go away and study about 'how lighting circuits work', or go out and buy test equipment, before attempting (with or without specific issue-related advice/suggestions) to get their lights back on. In the absence of any such advice, some may 'send for an electrician', but many won't - at least until they have had done a fair amount of (potentially dangerous) 'dabbling' themselves.

Kind Regards, John
 
Right then---can we all have a group hug , then kiss and make up?
BAS to retain the moral high ground, and others to advise as they think fit, but BAS to make his point only once per post ( I do think that the suggestion of a sticky with just a reference thereto is a good idea) and maintain the ongoing fundamental debate between other parties in a separate thread.
 
If I started asking questions on a sailing forum because I'd decided to go off on a yachting holiday, or to sail the channel because I couldn't afford a boat fare
Again this is questions BEFORE the event. Suppose you were half way across the channel in a small boat commanded by a skipper you thought was capable when that skipper became unable to continue command and you needed help. Would you be happy to be told by the coast guard ( or who ever answered you MayDay ) that it was about time you read a book on seamanship.

I will say it again. No one here is encouraging people to do DIY work without first getting the necessary information about the task. But it is a fact of life that people do start tasks without being aware of how much knowledge they need to know. If these people come to the forum for help when they realise they cannot complete the task then they should be given the help they need to completer or make safe the task.
 
Right then---can we all have a group hug , then kiss and make up?
BAS to retain the moral high ground, and others to advise as they think fit, but BAS to make his point only once per post ( I do think that the suggestion of a sticky with just a reference thereto is a good idea) and maintain the ongoing fundamental debate between other parties in a separate thread.
Indeed. The idea of putting his 'reading lists' etc. in the wiki, and linking to them in his posts, has been suggested countless times, but he has never acted upon that. The only thing I would personally probably change about what you've written above is that I think he should make these points "only once per thread" (not "only once per post")!

Kind Regards, John
 
The simple fact is the Mods will ban someone if they feel the need, having a flipping witch hunt on the forum is divisive, cowardly and only serves to create friction that no-one actually needs.

If I were a Mod here I would delete all threads like this..uncalled for I'm my humble opinion...and I don't even like the guy!!

I agree this is a pointless thread, BAS gives good advice and his links are really good for anyone like me who wants to get full details and understand what is involved (when I served my time it was 13th edition so a few things have changed since then)

dont knock it old chaps
we get loads of post count and dont get slagged off for not following correct procedures in installing a standard lamp
its a train wreck anyway the minute it started
 
There's something badly broken in your critical faculties apparatus. I am neither delighted nor upset ...
Fair enough. Although we are obviously different in many ways, if it were me I would be quite 'chuffed' to see a thread about myself, even if it included (or even 'majored on') 'negative' comments - since that would at least indicate that people were 'taking notice' of me.
Well - sorry to disappoint, but I'm not that trivial.


What probably would frustrate, annoy or maybe even upset me a little (and, I suspect, probably also you) would be if people seemed to be totally ignoring me, and what I said/wrote.

Yes - to have contributions and advice ignored is annoying.

But being the subject of a thread myself? Doesn't gratify me, and I wouldn't care if it never happened.
 
Again this is questions BEFORE the event. Suppose you were half way across the channel in a small boat commanded by a skipper you thought was capable when that skipper became unable to continue command and you needed help. Would you be happy to be told by the coast guard ( or who ever answered you MayDay ) that it was about time you read a book on seamanship.
Well - I must say that I never had you down as someone foolish enough to try again with that type of totally invalid analogy. You tried it with the starving and bleeding out, and I told you that those real emergencies were somewhat different to not having lights that work properly, or wanting a cable to a shed, or wanting to rewire a house.

I'll point out again, that those scenarios are nothing like the one you have posited here. Are you going to keep trying that sort of thing? You've still got "the house is on fire", and "the pilot has had a stroke" to have a go with, for example.
 
BAS

To you with your undoubtable knowledge of electrical items no electrical situation will ever be an emergency in your mind because you can fix it. But for people without you knowledge then what is a minor / i nsignificant problem to you will be a major disaster in their mind.
 

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