found old junction boxes

[JohnD]

in the house of an aged relation, a ceiling has come down after a water leak. The insurance company will pay for the electrical installation to be tested and a report in case there is water damage (some switches and light fittings were full of dirty water). They will pay for repairs and replacements due to the water damage, but of course not for pre-existing poor construction or defects.

Exposed by the removal of the ceiling, I observe several junction boxes for the ground floor lighting circuit that had been hidden under the floor. Wiring is in PVC T&E and in good condition.

I am considering what would be the correct thing to do with them. They look like the circuit was run under the landing floor, and Tee'd off to the ceiling lamps in the adjacent rooms. I do not want to take the floors up above all these rooms in order to run new cable and make connections in the ceiling roses. I was wondering if I could make crimped connections and heatshrink them in place of the JBs, or is there a better way? I am not very good at soldering.

 

[crunchynut]

Personally I would use Wago push fits and Wagoboxes. Dead simple and quick and like crimps do not require future access. Make sure you push them all the way in though.

 

[JohnD]

I believe there are differences of opinion if Wago meet the specification for a permanent joint.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

and like crimps do not require future access.

Who says so?

(Apart from the people who make them, of course)

Does 526.3 say anything about push-fit connections?

 

[1john]

IMO i'd rather a junction box under a floor that a wago connector.

 

[xr4x4]

I also would like clarification on crimped joints. I was under the impression that they do not need to be visible for inspection.

 

[JohnD]

no they don't, that's why I was thinking of using them.

However to make the Tees, I would have to put (e.g.) two 1.5,, conductors in each side of a crimp, whereas I am used to only putting one in each end of a butt connector.

 

[1john]

Do you need to interfere with them? Cant you leave them as they are? I know it isn't correct but if you start altering them then they are going to become your problem, surely?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

crimps are fine to use in an in-accessible place. Like others have said, apply heat shrink to provide some strain relief.
On occasion, i have used a choc-box instead of heat shrink.

Ive never used Wagos, but I understand that it is just a spring loaded, shrouded terminal- not too dissimilar to the Ashley range of maintenance free junction boxes. Ashley say their's can be hidden in voids.
Also, how would you define what constitutes an 'appropriate compression tool'?

Is the customer happy to accept your bill for the repair, or, like John says, is it better to leave well alone - can of worms?

 

[JohnD]

no bill from me. I will be tidying up and trying to make it "better"

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

fair do's, very noble of you. You have restored my faith in humanity

Have a look at these
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

 

[sparkwright]

Very commendable of you to want to put this work right, but could be a can of worms. In reality there are many thousands of junction boxes under floors which are ok (until something goes wrong).

The maintenance free junction boxes are not necessarily compliant, according to this forum. I'm sure John D will recall the many discussions about them.

In all my time I don't think I've ever seen a soldered joint for three or more cables (e.g. three plate for lighting) yet, not done properly anyway. And I am still finding relatively new (harmonised colours anyway) screw terminal junction boxes under floors.

Anyone got any photos of soldered joints with three or more cables, that are geniunely in service?

 

[RF Lighting]

Personally I'd just take the opportunity whilst the ceiling is down to whip the covers off the JBs and just make sure all the screws are nipped up nice and tight (But don't go mad or you risk possibly severing one or more of the wires)

Other than that I would leave them as they are. I know they are non compliant, and I wouldn't install them on a new job, but there are hundreds of thousands of them like this and if they have been done right to start with, it's unlikely they will suddenly go wrong.

As for these wago connectors, they are not approved by BS7671 for use in inaccessible locations, so these would make the job no better, and they have not stood the test of time like traditional JBs have. As you've already mentioned there are too many wires to use crimps, so JBs are really the best other than obviously rewiring to remove the need for any joint at all.

 

[crunchynut]

yup, fairplay BAS.

I sort of stand corrected!

Here is my get out:

Wago themselves actually say they should remain accessible unless buried in a compound . This would then comply with 526.3ii . Obviously I ALWAYS pour joint compound into wago boxes. Ahem...

I have no reason to doubt what they have to say.

I would still prefer them to
JB's though on low 'chew' lighting ccts. JB's are inherently more likely to loosen over time.

So I will now say to the OP to use wagos/boxes and note where they are on floorboards above!! Unless 523.6ii is satisfied.

Regards.

 

[RF Lighting]

Joint boxes do not comply with BS7671
Wago connectors do not comply with BS7671

Joint boxes are tried and tested over years and years and if they have been installed properly they very very rarely fail.

Wago connectors aren't.

Joint box every time for me.