Free boiler for pensioners - system not flushed? no magnetic filter?

[JohnD]

why should the taxpayer have to pay to have it flushed ?

Because the taxpayer, or the levy-paying utility customer, whoever is paying for the job, expects the job to be done properly.

It is not "free" in the sense that the supplier and installer of the new boiler are donating it as a gift.

The rest of us are paying for it to assist the more vulnerable and hard-up members of society. Very likely many of these are not even aware that they are being treated with contempt and receiving shoddy work. Those of us who are paying for it are being ripped off.

For example, if I live long enough, I hope to collect a small state pension that I have been contributing to for many years. It is not "free" and I should not feel grateful even if somebody pinches a bit of it.

 

[Aquaheat]

why should the taxpayer have to pay to have it flushed ?

Because the taxpayer, or the levy-paying utility customer, whoever is paying for the job, expects the job to be done properly.

It is not "free" in the sense that the supplier and installer of the new boiler are donating it as a gift.

The rest of us are paying for it to assist the more vulnerable and hard-up members of society. Very likely many of these are not even aware that they are being treated with contempt and receiving shoddy work. Those of us who are paying for it are being ripped off.

For example, if I live long enough, I hope to collect a small state pension that I have been contributing to for many years. It is not "free" and I should not feel grateful even if somebody pinches a bit of it.

@JohnD You misunderstand the ECO (Energy Company Obligation) scheme.

Their remit is to supply an appliance that can help reduce energy consumption and therefore bills for those that are in what is deemed to be fuel poverty.

It is not in the remit to take on board systems that have been neglected for years without a thought. It isn't to provide anything that does not directly influence a reduction in energy consumption.

To take the OP @jh75 as an example. He is moaning that there isn't a filter fitted. Why should there be it does not stop the appliance saving fuel and nor does it save fuel in its own right.

The radiators are obviously very sludged up from years of neglect. Why should the installer or utility bill payers foot the bill for this neglect? Again it has no direct effect on energy consumption.

If the installer had been offered a powerflush for £500 to sort out his crappy system first and then offered a filter for £150 before the appliance could be fitted would he have put his hand in his pocket?

The OP has got exactly what the ECO is there for. An energy saving appliance fitted into the property at no cost to them that will save them money. Maybe the OP should now consider looking after his parents and sorting out their shoddy heating system so it will help their nice new boiler.

I have to wonder why the OP is now all of a sudden concerned about their system but hasn't been for years before?

OP you have what you are entitled to under ECO. The rest is now your (your parents) responsibility.

NOFA always wanting more and more for nothing and laying the blame somewhere else!!

Jon

 

[Agile]

If I may be blunt to the pros, the problem is within your industry and therefore you are the key group of people that should be doing something to solve it. Don't you have a union or equivalent pressure group that could push the ideas you're proposing i.e. have the option for indy's to install? If you expect pensioners who have trouble remembering what they had for breakfast to fight the cause for you, then you are sadly deluded.

The problem is that there is no one to put pressure on in any normal way.

They are political people and everyone knows they don't respond to pressure.

Its government sponsored people who make these decisions, usually in a committee.

Tony

 

[martineg]

The OP has got exactly what the ECO is there for. An energy saving appliance fitted into the property at no cost to them that will save them money.

Surely you'd expect them to follow the manual, seems as though installed has voided the warrant by not using flushing agent

 

[Aquaheat]

EDIT due to @mg75 losing his bottle and deleting his post without the right to reply. Fair do's mate off you run and let the grown ups have their conversation

Do you own one of these short-cutting private companies that are the real benefitor's of the scheme and are the ones who are lining their pockets?? either that or ypu are very biased for another reason

Not at all and have never and would never fit any under these schemes. I actually despise these schemes as it promotes BS like this and costs us all in the long run. I'm a SE engineer that does real installs for customers that care for their systems and are willing to take care of their investments.

There is no bias in my post. I simply state the fact that the OP has everything that the ECO system is there for. I agree that flushing should be carried out to heavily sludged systems such as the OP's but this should be at the cost of the customer as should the filter.

Worcester don't require a chemical flush pre install nor do they require the old boiler to be in position they require a clean system. This can be done in many ways and I actually think that a system water test should be carried out at the time of survey to see if the boiler can be fitted without extra cost. If the system has suffered from years of neglect then the customer should have to put into serviceable condition before a free boiler is granted.

Agreed that the installer should have done a chemical flush after the install as this removes flux residues and debris from the install and IS required by Worcester for the warranty along with the correct Ph level. What he should have done is to refuse to fit the boiler initially when he saw how neglected the system was. All in all this still comes down to the overall neglect for the system over many years and the OP should have to put his hand in his pocket for this.

If he had been asked for £500 for a powerflush and £160 for a MB3 filter before the boiler could be installed then that would be fair surely seeing as ECO are providing what they should do under the scheme?

Jon

 

[Aquaheat]

The OP has got exactly what the ECO is there for. An energy saving appliance fitted into the property at no cost to them that will save them money.

Surely you'd expect them to follow the manual, seems as though installed has voided the warrant by not using flushing agent

Nope Worcester only require a chemical flush post install as per manuals.

It should be cleaned to BS7593 before installation and as I said before if this requires further treatments, chemicals and powerflushing then this should be at the customers cost as they have neglected their system.

Jon

 

[vulcancontinental]

Don't put words into my mouth, I do not like to call them suckers and did not, I used the word to emphasis that this is the unhappy result of watching millions squandered by stupid politicians, left wing politicians as you brought the subject up I may add. We are human and see stupidity repeating itself to our and your parents cost for years, don't be surprised when we become inured to it.

Well meaning is not the same as financially astute. What you may not know is I worked for a company working for the original scheme for 4 years, I know very well what went on and the victims, starting probably 18 years ago when it all took off, are still victims now but oh dear, it's the us guys who put the boilers in whose fault it is that the schemes were poorly administered, not that the recipients or victims have had ad enough time to do anything about it but still haven't. The original scheme, started by the Tories and then with money thrown at it and trumpted by John Prescott used primarily poor boilers by coincidence in his constituency, that left many hard up people worse off than they were before.

|You say it's someone else's fault, someone should do something; well, instead of whining on a forum, I and many others have given you good, accurate and well meant advice; we don't wish your parents ill however you do something, they're your parents, they wiped your bottom and fed you when you were a baby so now there is an opportunity to repay them.

Sort our house out? I would remind you the problem isn't in our house, it's in yours.

 

[Aquaheat]

From the Worcester Install manual. Note that the requirement pre install from Worcester is to comply with BS7593.

I agree that he shouldn't fit to a dirty system but this could be checked at survey and should be carried out at the cost of those wanting the boiler.

 

[jh75]

From the Worcester Install manual. Note that the requirement pre install from Worcester is to comply with BS7593.

I agree that he shouldn't fit to a dirty system but this could be checked at survey and should be carried out at the cost of those wanting the boiler.

Are you purposely being dense? it clearly states in the page you've posted that the system must be chemically flushed pre-installation in accordance with manufacturers instructions. You're obviously a cowboy yourself if you think its a good install.

 

[Aquaheat]

From the Worcester Install manual. Note that the requirement pre install from Worcester is to comply with BS7593.

I agree that he shouldn't fit to a dirty system but this could be checked at survey and should be carried out at the cost of those wanting the boiler.

Are you purposely being dense? it clearly states in the page you've posted that the system must be chemically flushed pre-installation in accordance with manufacturers instructions. You're obviously a cowboy yourself if you think its a good install.

Please highlight the specific point where it states that it MUST be done before fitting the appliance. I can point out two points straight away that let you fit the appliance first.

I'll give you a bit of time to read it through properly. I'm just popping out to feed the horse

Jon

 

[jh75]

You say it's someone else's fault, someone should do something; well, instead of whining on a forum, I and many others have given you good, accurate and well meant advice; we don't wish your parents ill however you do something, they're your parents, they wiped your bottom and fed you when you were a baby so now there is an opportunity to repay them.
Sort our house out? I would remind you the problem isn't in our house, it's in yours.

vulcan, I wasn't talking about the end users I was talking about the politics. The end users arent gonna care unless something major goes wrong. The truth be told very very few will even know they've had a bad install. They are not going to sort the mess of the schemes out. It is in your interest to sort it out because you could make money from it and also do a better job! If you want a piece of the pie (and other indies), youre not gonna get that by being angry that end users ('suckers') get a 'free' lunch.

I dont know anything about your industry, if there is a union or similar or not. Just saying that if it riles you that people are lining their pockets; then do something about it. It is your profession afterall.

 

[Aquaheat]

You're obviously a cowboy yourself if you think its a good install.

Again please go through all of my posts and tell me where I have once said it was a good install.

What I have said is that you have got what you paid for

Jon

 

[jh75]

Please highlight the specific point where it states that it MUST be done before fitting the appliance. I can point out two points straight away that let you fit the appliance first.

I'll give you a bit of time to read it through properly. I'm just popping out to feed the horse

Jon

I paste the relevant bits of the page (you didnt post the top bit)

4 PRE-INSTALLATION


NOTICE: All the following pre-installation sections must
be read and requirements met before starting the boiler
or flue installations.

Close drain cocks and add a suitable flushing agent compatible with
aluminium at the correct strength for the system conditions in
accordance with the manufacturer‘s instructions.
The pH value of the system water must be less than 8 or the
appliance guarantee will be invalidated.
.
.
.

 

[DaveHerns]

If the canvassers told the poor old OAP they would have to pay for a powerflush and a mag filter before they got their "free" boiler, how many fewer OAPs would sign up? I suspect the installers don't expect the OAPs to recognise a poor installation or to be alive when it all goes wrong. The doorstep canvassers are probably only on commission for every gullible OAP they get to sign on the dotted line so they won't care. I have a 92 yo mother who signs up for things like this because she hasn't got what it takes to say "no" . Companies and charities etc who exploit the elderly and vulnerable really p*ss me off.
My mother got signed up with BG for a new boiler because "parts aren't available " for the old one. Top money but amazingly a RGI who serviced it a few weeks ago thought they'd done a good job on the install

 

[Aquaheat]

1. Where possible. Does not say that it MUST be used

2. Why would it have to be compatible with aluminium unless they want to ensure their aluminium hex is OK

3. If you had a broken down appliance how would you achieve this?

4. Can still use a machine after all that and you still can't get pH level right you can then power flush!

5. Why add an inhibitor if the boiler wasn't fitted and you were doing all of this on the old boiler.

As long as all the above are complied with then you have achieved this:

NOTICE: All the following pre-installation sections must
be read and requirements met before starting the boiler
or flue installations.


Now again,please tell me where it states that it MUST be done before fitting the boiler.

I'm not arguing that it isn't best practice and I personally wouldn't but the M.I's do not demand it be done. They caution you of possible damage and say you MUST read the sections and ensure that they are followed.

Now answer my questions that I asked previously that you have skirted around.

Had you been asked to pay £660 to have your system brought up to an acceptable standard due to your neglect before you were granted a boiler would you have done it?

Jon