French Constitution Vote

[Damocles]

I still havn't read all the treaty so I have no personal opinion on whether it is good or bad. If there is a vote, I will find out more. At present I go on what people have said about it, which leads me to think it would not in reality make much difference.

Every countries government agreed to it so I assume it has something to offer to everyone. It sounds as though different people have rejected it for different reasons. If you took two groups of objectors and changed the treaty to suit the first, you would likely find the second disliked it more. So it is not immediately obvious how it might be tweaked to make it acceptable.

The reality is that European countries have been taking a lesson from Britain and blaming problems on the EU. Like some of the examples given in this thread they are not EU problems but mainly national problems or problems which frankly would have been unavoidable whatever you did. If you keep doing that then it is not surprising if a number of people start asking pointed questions.

When the economy is doing well people are inclined to trust the government, when it is not they are more likely not to take things on trust. And for whatever reason it would seem these guys campaigning in the referenda did not do a brilliant job of explaining the treaty. So not surprising if people declined to support it.

 

[Freddie]

Either we talk too copletly different languages or you are completly barking mad.

People and countries have said why they dont want to be closer together and why the Euro and other things is making their countries go wrong and you come up with something else to explain that they dont know what they are on about but you do------amazing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Damocles]

Just saw some of the proggie about the referendum on staying in the EU. I noticed they mentioned the issue of preventing war in Europe.

The difference between then, 30 years ago, and now, is that there were still active politicians and ordinary people who remembered war. Now it sounds ludicrous that we might go to war with France. 30 years ago it did not. Going to war with germany was something most people had done. Something most people did not want ever to have the remotest chance of happening again.

Anyone who now says the Eu had nothing to do with preventing war in Europe is living in an Ivory tower built on the foundations of a forcibly integrated Europe. The EU was not the only part of this, but it was and is the part which everyone agreed to because they knew it was unbelievably better than the remotest chance of another European war.

 

[Freddie]

 

[david and julie]

Just saw some of the proggie about the referendum on staying in the EU. I noticed they mentioned the issue of preventing war in Europe.

Anyone who now says the Eu had nothing to do with preventing war in Europe is living in an Ivory tower built on the foundations of a forcibly integrated Europe. but it was and is the part which everyone agreed to because they knew it was unbelievably better than the remotest chance of another European war.

At what point, during its existence, as the EU had to intervene to prevent war within its memberstates? In truth there have been no problems bad enough to warrant a war between members since 1945, which is well before the EU came into being anyway. This is pure scaremongering by the pro Euro camp because they can't justify why we should keep it all going.

"Vote for us to avoid getting killed" doesn't quite have a proper ring to it, but that is what they are saying. This is the pure scaremongering by a cosy political elite defunct of genuine debate. Everything they have done is by diktat, this is the first time there as been a fair vote and they have failed abysmally. If any politician or Eurocrat ignores the wishes of the people of France or Holland they should be jailed or shot for treason.

People don't want the EU, it is costly, corrupt and out of touch with the feelings of the majority, it should be scrapped and the sooner the better.

The fact that France and Germany are now(according to the news) talking about some kind of splinter group, shows how shallow this supposed unity really is.

 

[securespark]

His vorpal blade went snicker-snack.

Sorry to change the subject. I may be a past-it git, but WTF is a vorpal blade? And what does snicker-snack sound like?

 

[david and julie]

Jabberwocky

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxnome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

-- Lewis Carroll

Simon, do remember the jabberwocky pub in the old church in Fallowfield near Owens Park?

 

[Freddie]

Sounds more like Wurzal Gummidge and that i could believe of Damocles talking gibberish

 

[david and julie]

Must admit Freddie, I'm not a big poetry person, but I do remember that one.

I always liked this, which I first read on a wall in a pub bogs, probably at least 30 years ago. " reality is an illusion caused by the lack of alcohol" which I suspect may have a ring of truth in it! Probably my first experience of meaningful grafitti. AdamW, was it you that said this, recently, on another forum?

 

[Freddie]

Must admit Freddie, I'm not a big poetry person, but I do remember that one.

I always liked this, which I first read on a wall in a pub bogs, probably at least 30 years ago. " alcohol is an illusion caused by the lack of alcohol" which I suspect may have a ring of truth in it! Probably my first experience of meaningful grafitti. AdamW, was it you that said this, recently, on another forum?

Yes i remember that one from those days, them days when we were about to go to war with France remember??? 1975 what a year, started with come up and see me make me smile by Cockney Rebel and finished with Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen and the only war i remember is-- Jeus Son Frontiers---it's a knockout with Eddie Waring laughing himself stupid---good programme quite funny aswell about the only good thing to come out of the EU

 

[AdamW]

'Fraid that gem wasn't mine, but I like it and will try to remember it!

IIRC, in the late 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, the threat was not war in Europe, it was war with the East Bloc. We seemed to do alright then... many would say better.

We were never the antagonists in WW1 or WW2, why should we suffer? I often think we would do better as a new US state than trying to argue the toss with the EU all the time, and at least our government would spend less time figuring out how to tax us more so they can pay Brussels more.

 

[Damocles]

Nice to see someone remembers something. I believe Lewis Carol responded to popular requests to explain some of the words in his poem and wrote a glossary. Unfortunately I do not remember where you will find it. An online dictionary suggests vorpal means 'capable of killing with one blow'.

D&J. I think you miss the point and demonstrate the successes of the anti-war strategy. 'At what point has the EU had to intervene to prevent war between member states?' The answer is never. It is never because there has been such a huge and seismic change in the behaviour of all those states. They have moved from a time when they were shooting at each other to win territories to a time when they are arguing round a table over the names of sausages. And I am so very pleased that we now have wars of words about sausages rather than wars of lead.

You think the EU wastes money? Be quite sure that if we were not part of the EU, then our own civil service would have to grow to do all the things which the EU does now. It would still cost the same.


The lesson of History is that we absolutely have to fight to ensure that this continues. If every European state once again started behaving like the US currently is, then we WOULD have wars in Europe before you can shout 'Entente cordiale'. And just what is happening in Europe? Why, quite a few people ar trying to stir up nationalist nonsense again. Before you know it the BNP will be having away matches against the successor of ther Hitler youth. Or more likely, joining forces and killing off all the jews, gypsies, turks, indians and non-arians they can find. Just remember, that once they have finished on the minorities they both agree on, they will start on the ones they disagree on. So before you know it the German lot will be ideologically trying to exterminate the majority of the British native population, and vice-versa.

And did you notice that in fact we HAVE had some recent wars in Europe. Some rather nasty ones involving ethnic cleansing? Notably in countries which have not taken the route of EU membership and restructuring away from imperial nartionalism. In fact, many people from these countries would dearly wish that their own countries had been able to join the EU route many years ago.

Difficult to see exactly how the French government might join a splinter group which the French people voted against?

Freddie, Hard to reply to your earlier post point by point as it is too far back to register in the review window. However....

What have you got agaianst the labour movement? Unions were a child of their time. When all the money is held by very few people, and then the many realise what is going on, well they will eventually do something about it. This was not the problem. The problem was that lots of other countries were frankly better at making things than we were. The recovery of British industry (such as it is) is not due to people getting lower pay, but to better productivity. The trouble came when growing labour demands met bankrupt management.

Britain would NOT have remained economically powerful. It COULD NOT. The numbers are all against it. Britain became powerful by grossly exploiting 1/5 of the world. Empire on which the sun never set? Bigger than the EU? Each of the countries in the EU had its own empire and used the proceeds for personal agrandisement. The only result was death and slaughter. Wholesale. Everywhere. America still has the resources to play that game, but we do not. That dismal period you talk about of union power was in reality the last gasp of dying empire.

EU declaring war on America? I hope not. War is failure. First objective is to get what you want without shooting. Something the US has forgotten. But a strong country is often tempted to start shooting when it percieves its opponent as weak.....

 

[david and julie]

'Fraid that gem wasn't mine, but I like it and will try to remember it!

I have made a typing error Adam. I said alcohol is an illusion caused by the lack of alcohol, which should of been "reality is an illusion caused by the lack of alcohol". In this instance it was probably caused by too many Buds! I will edit to avoid future confusion.

 

[david and julie]

Damocles, I haven't missed any point at all. The EU is blatantly suggesting it is preventing war, which is either untrue or cannot be proven. The civil service and the public sector in general has expanded because of EU directives. In most cases the work of the eurocrats is duplicated in the individual memberstates too.

Before you know it the BNP will be having away matches against the successor of ther Hitler youth. Or more likely, joining forces and killing off all the jews, gypsies, turks, indians and non-arians they can find.

Slightly of topic I would of thought this and I cannot see what it as to do with the EU. We may not like BNP or NF etc, but they are legal and they have nothing to do with the EU, except, no doubt, the EU will no doubt ban this type of party when they actually achieve their true aims of dictatorship.

At what point is the EU going to stop enlargement?

 

[Damocles]

The Hitler Youth had nothing to do with the EU and was also completely legal. I do not think that made it desirable.

The BNP is not off topic. Most of the objections people are making about the EU are objections to EU civil servants making rules rather than British/French/German civil servants making rules for themselves. If that is not nationalism, then I do not know what it is. Classic irrational old fashioned self-destructive nationalism. It is an objection not to bad government, but to perceived foreign government. In this present case it is mixed up with national leaders becoming so arrogant that they do not even bother to explain to people what they want to do and why.