Well most of us pays tax on income so why the concern? Except for tax evasion!
Everybody you give an invoice to has a record anyway!
Everybody you give an invoice to has a record anyway!
Fuse board / consumer unit change - EIC / EICR required?
- Thread starter baker332
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Sorry, I'm rather lost. Can you help me understand what Part P has got to do with tax on income?
I`m afraid it looks like the esteemed forum member chose not to reply for some reason !
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@Murdochcat did make the reference to Part P being a tax, LABC is suppose to be self financing, but is not suppose to make money, however there are services they do not get paid for, work for the disabled, and I don't think the scheme providers pass on any fees for administration so some pay over the top so others get it free.
However it is the way fees are calculated, in Wales think rules changed in England? we pay £100 plus vat for the first £2000 worth of work, which for a £2000 job is not too bad, the problem is with a £50 job say moving a socket in a kitchen, or fitting one outside, the fee for registering the work can be over what the whole job costs.
I was forced down the LABC route when the builder doing mothers wet room ran off. OK free as it was for her disability, but the hoops I had to jump through including proving I had the skill, before they would accept my EIC to issue the completion certificate was not easy.
A few years down the line, she died and house was to be sold, I could not find the paperwork, so applied to LABC for a replacement, was told it would take 4 months and would cost however long it took the council worker to find it, i.e. would be signing an open cheque, lucky then found the paperwork, however it was basic go away we are not interested.
With council where I live now I can find paperwork on line, but the council where mother lived it claims you can view on line, but a hunt showed jobs I knew were registered with them did not show up. So it seems a huge difference council to council even within Wales.
If one has lived in the home before 2004 no one can really show if the work was planned (and the law says planned not carried out) before or after that date, so in real terms as long as one has the EIC no one can prove if there should have been a compliance or completion certificate as well, and I would not think many would ask, they would be satisfied with the EIC.
However with a metal CU with all RCBO's and a SPD I would think it is rather clear it was not planned to fit those before 2004 as they did not exist, but unless some one is injured or if the house is to be sold, who will look and see what has been done? Lucky things like the Emma Shaw case are rare, but that case the electrician, plasterer, plumber, electricians mate, and electrical foreman all made errors, accidents by the very name are not planned, and clearly happen, to not get a completion or compliance certificate you are taking a gamble that nothing will go wrong in the future causing a HSE visit.
However it is the way fees are calculated, in Wales think rules changed in England? we pay £100 plus vat for the first £2000 worth of work, which for a £2000 job is not too bad, the problem is with a £50 job say moving a socket in a kitchen, or fitting one outside, the fee for registering the work can be over what the whole job costs.
I was forced down the LABC route when the builder doing mothers wet room ran off. OK free as it was for her disability, but the hoops I had to jump through including proving I had the skill, before they would accept my EIC to issue the completion certificate was not easy.
A few years down the line, she died and house was to be sold, I could not find the paperwork, so applied to LABC for a replacement, was told it would take 4 months and would cost however long it took the council worker to find it, i.e. would be signing an open cheque, lucky then found the paperwork, however it was basic go away we are not interested.
With council where I live now I can find paperwork on line, but the council where mother lived it claims you can view on line, but a hunt showed jobs I knew were registered with them did not show up. So it seems a huge difference council to council even within Wales.
If one has lived in the home before 2004 no one can really show if the work was planned (and the law says planned not carried out) before or after that date, so in real terms as long as one has the EIC no one can prove if there should have been a compliance or completion certificate as well, and I would not think many would ask, they would be satisfied with the EIC.
However with a metal CU with all RCBO's and a SPD I would think it is rather clear it was not planned to fit those before 2004 as they did not exist, but unless some one is injured or if the house is to be sold, who will look and see what has been done? Lucky things like the Emma Shaw case are rare, but that case the electrician, plasterer, plumber, electricians mate, and electrical foreman all made errors, accidents by the very name are not planned, and clearly happen, to not get a completion or compliance certificate you are taking a gamble that nothing will go wrong in the future causing a HSE visit.
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It does rather seem that way, which is a pity because I was hoping he would be able to educate me about how Part P relates to tax on income.
Kind Regards, John
Although his 'reference' was far from clear, I suppose that he might describe any payment made to (local or central) government as "a tax", but I don't think that's particularly helpful.
He might have been trying to imply that Part P was introduced solely as a 'money-making exercise' but I don't believe that. It undoubtedly arose because of a well-intentioned (but poorly thought-through and implemented) desire to improve 'safety' - it always seemed strange (at least to me) that there was so much legislation and regulation relating to other 'safety-related' issues (in the broadest sense), but nothing relating to electrical safety.
However, unless/until he helps us to understand the point he was trying to make, we can but guess and speculate.
"It undoubtedly arose because of a well-intentioned (but poorly thought-through and implemented) desire to improve 'safety' - it always seemed strange (at least to me"
Yes I very strongly agree with that.
"However, unless/until he helps us to understand the point he was trying to make, we can but guess and speculate."
Again yes too.
In fact I agree with the remainder too.
Come on Murderchat, tell us your theory, it is good to get others opinions whether I agree or not.
I know some seem to think that Part P came about because of the sad death of Mary Wherry, No it did not although some think so.
I will concede that perhaps a last minute delay might have happened (like with windows/Fensa etc but perhaps her demise prevented a similar approach, who knows? I don`t.
Yes I very strongly agree with that.
"However, unless/until he helps us to understand the point he was trying to make, we can but guess and speculate."
Again yes too.
In fact I agree with the remainder too.
Come on Murderchat, tell us your theory, it is good to get others opinions whether I agree or not.
I know some seem to think that Part P came about because of the sad death of Mary Wherry, No it did not although some think so.
I will concede that perhaps a last minute delay might have happened (like with windows/Fensa etc but perhaps her demise prevented a similar approach, who knows? I don`t.
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Safety in the home has been missed regulation wise, we have electricity at work act and many others like offices shops and railway premises, but the home had little regulation. As to if the home needed it is another question, as a owner occupier I feel it should be in the main up to me what I do, there is of course the visitor, be it a nurse, postman, milkman etc, but in the main I should be able to decide where I spend my money.
However with rental we move into a completely different situation, the occupier needs to be safe, but often it is the owner who has to pay for his safety.
So I can see how there needs to be a minimum standard, however one has to ask the question, would living in this house
be better than living on the street? the council declared the house unfit for human habitation, mainly down to its size, yet one can live in a tent or caravan which is much smaller than the smallest house.
In Wales we are seeing landlords saying enough is enough, and selling the properties and instead creating huge static caravan sites as up to date the rules with caravans are no where near as strict to those for bricks and mortar.
So for me to install an outside light to light the way down my drive for the safety of the milkman, not only have I got to buy the materials and do the work, but must also pay the LABC £125 to be allowed to do it, explain to me how that helps with safety?
However with rental we move into a completely different situation, the occupier needs to be safe, but often it is the owner who has to pay for his safety.
So I can see how there needs to be a minimum standard, however one has to ask the question, would living in this house
be better than living on the street? the council declared the house unfit for human habitation, mainly down to its size, yet one can live in a tent or caravan which is much smaller than the smallest house.In Wales we are seeing landlords saying enough is enough, and selling the properties and instead creating huge static caravan sites as up to date the rules with caravans are no where near as strict to those for bricks and mortar.
So for me to install an outside light to light the way down my drive for the safety of the milkman, not only have I got to buy the materials and do the work, but must also pay the LABC £125 to be allowed to do it, explain to me how that helps with safety?
So, pre part P there was no work that sparks did that needed to be recorded by any body in the government etc
Part p means local councils get notification so they know who is registering work.
So immediately this gives HMRC the ability to enquire about activities if they want (this could already be happening automatically in the HMRC super computer)
That is what the suspicion was when it was introduced.
There have been many threads on here where the thread starters disclose no invoice, no certificate and hence no tax being paid (probably).
Been rather busy
So you are suggesting that Part P was introduced to help HMRC identify electricians who were not declaring some (or all) of their income to HMRC?
If so, why on earth single out electricians, given that, in all walks of life, there are millions of self-employed people or business owners etc. some of whom will be under-declaring (or not declaring) their income? Are you suggesting that, for some reason, electricians are particularly prone to trying to cheat the tax system?
The system was initially introduced to (also) regulate ancillary trades doing electrical work.
The stupidity in England is that the 2013 alterations removed virtually all requirements from all trades except electricians.
That doesn't alter the nonsense of what was being suggested.
Do you believe that legislation would have been introduced to make it easier for HMRC to detect tax evasion which only related to electricians and "those in ancillary trades who also did electrical work"?
Attempts at significant tax evasion exist in a small minority of people in all walks of life, only a tiny proportion of who undertake paid electrical work and I have no reason to believe that it is a particularly prevalent criminal activity in those who undertake electrical work. The suggestion that Part P was introduced for this reason is surely sheer nonsense, isn't it?
I think that if you take the word “Murdochat” alter the letters slightly, then add just a few more letters and then remove only a few then you end up with “Conspiracy Theorist” . How amazing is that?
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