Garage wiring options

[JohnW2]

I think advising anyone to do electrical work that is non-compliant should be frowned upon, if i were to ask a tradesperson for advice, I hope hope they would advise me to current standards not historically ones.

No argument with that, provided you mean 'current regulations'. As we've been discussing, there are approaches which, in the hands of a competent designer, can be compliant with current regulations, even if they don't correspond with the guidance of Appendix 15.

Now then how long is it since spurring from a spur on a RFC has not been permitted?

I can't speak for history, but I don't think you'll find anything in the current regulations (and that doesn't include the 'informative' guidance of app 15!) which forbids 'spurring from an unfused spur of a ring final', provided that the design itself is compliant with regulations (where appropriate, involving the expert judgement of the designer).

As I recently wrote, I suppose can't blame those electricians who choose to stick to the word of App 15, rather than using their skill and knowledge to explore alternative design approaches that would also be regs-compliant, since it is probably the safest course as far as their 'backside' is concerned - and since it's their backside, who am I to deny them that 'comfort'?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SaladFingersMKII]

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want.

Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15:
Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only.
This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.
Thoughts!

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

 

[JohnW2]

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want. Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15: Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only. ... This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.!

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

Who did? At that stage in the discussion, no-one but PBoD himself had mentioned fused spurs!

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

This is where my comments come from, regarding using a junction box to connect to the ring final as an unfused spur. The connection of the lighting is a second issue and that is where the FCU is mentioned, but the issue is unfused spur at RFC.

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want.

Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15:
Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only.
This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.
Thoughts!

 

[AndyPRK]

The unfused spur already exists. He just moving the socket

 

[NeilPalfreyman]

Thanks, all, for the replies and the interesting debate!

Having inspected the socket in the kitchen I can confirm that its on a ring and that the existing garage socket is a spur is taken from this (on an RCD protected circuit.)

This raises an interesting question: Why whoever put the original spur in didn't just extend the ring into the garage?

As it stands there are three conductors in the terminals of the kitchen socket.

I hesitate to ask this as it could prompt another flurry of debate, but... Could I simply take one "side" of the ring through to the garage (assuming, of course, that there is enough cable to pull through) replace the 13A (spur) socket in the garage with a junction box, wire the new 13A socket from this then return the ring back into the kitchen socket?

I could then wire the lighting spur from a fused, switched connection off of the junction box.

 

[JohnW2]

Having inspected the socket in the kitchen I can confirm that its on a ring and that the existing garage socket is a spur is taken from this (on an RCD protected circuit.)

How have you confirmed that it'd a ring? The fact that there are three cables doesn't make it certain that it's a ring.

This raises an interesting question: Why whoever put the original spur in didn't just extend the ring into the garage?

Probably quite adequate for the needs of the garage and simpler/less cable.

I hesitate to ask this as it could prompt another flurry of debate, but... Could I simply take one "side" of the ring through to the garage (assuming, of course, that there is enough cable to pull through) replace the 13A (spur) socket in the garage with a junction box, wire the new 13A socket from this then return the ring back into the kitchen socket?

You could, but I'm not sure that there would be any real point.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Millwright]

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want. Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15: Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only. ... This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.!

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

Who did? At that stage in the discussion, no-one but PBoD himself had mentioned fused spurs!

Kind Regards, John

Andy did, which PBOD responded to, by the looks of it.

 

[securespark]

In common sense terms, it certainly seems very odd that App 15 (even though it is not mandatory) appears to say (and is usually interpreted as saying) that one double socket on an unfused spur is OK, but two single sockets (or, say, a single socket plus FCU) aren't.

The IET explain it thus: All accessories have a rating of 13A which must not be exceeded, therefore an unfused spur with a single socket, an FCU or a double socket are essentially the same.

Although "off the record" he agreed that a double socket could easily have its limit exceeded.

Make of that what you will!

 

[JohnW2]

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want. Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15: Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only. ... This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.!

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

Who did? At that stage in the discussion, no-one but PBoD himself had mentioned fused spurs!

Andy did, which PBOD responded to, by the looks of it.

No he didn't. He merely talked about moving the existing socket (which was already on an unfused spur, and still would be even ifit were moved) - and then connecting the lighting via an FCU to that (which, as PBoD indicated, many/most electricians feel is non-compliant with the regs {well, a non-mandatory Appendix of the regs} - even though I have argued that it needn't be!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Millwright]

Or you could change the existing socket to a junction box. Move socket where you want. Connect lighting up via 3A fcu.

Appendix 15: Unfused spur: An unfused spur should feed one single/one twin socket only. ... This maybe down to interpretation, but that could mean that any additional loaded accessories would not allowed.!

But he said use a fused one, not unfused one.

Who did? At that stage in the discussion, no-one but PBoD himself had mentioned fused spurs!

Andy did, which PBOD responded to, by the looks of it.

No he didn't. He merely talked about moving the existing socket (which was already on an unfused spur, and still would be even ifit were moved) - and then connecting the lighting via an FCU to that (which, as PBoD indicated, many/most electricians feel is non-compliant with the regs {well, a non-mandatory Appendix of the regs} - even though I have argued that it needn't be!).

Kind Regards, John

He did, read again. It's in the multiple quotes.

 

[JohnW2]

In common sense terms, it certainly seems very odd that App 15 (even though it is not mandatory) appears to say (and is usually interpreted as saying) that one double socket on an unfused spur is OK, but two single sockets (or, say, a single socket plus FCU) aren't.

The IET explain it thus: All accessories have a rating of 13A which must not be exceeded, therefore an unfused spur with a single socket, an FCU or a double socket are essentially the same. Although "off the record" he agreed that a double socket could easily have its limit exceeded. ... Make of that what you will!

Well, that is based on the often-debated question as to what the maximum 'rating' (load) of double sockets actually is. Many say 20A, a few (seemingly like your 'off the record' IET person) think it is 13A, and the vast majority of the general public have never even dreamed that it is anything other than 26A!

Whatever, the IET comment/explanation you refer to presumably only relates to ('informative') Appendix 15, since this issue is not (AFAIAA) mentioned anywhere in the regs themselves. As I wrote recently, it seems to me that the regs themselves would permit a competent designer to have an unfused spur with half a dozen double sockets, in certain circumstances!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

He did, read again. It's in the multiple quotes.

Your eyesight must be different from mine. Perhaps you could help me by just quoting the bit where you believe Andy was talking about a fused spur?

Kind Regrads, John

 

[Millwright]

He did, read again. It's in the multiple quotes.

Your eyesight must be different from mine. Perhaps you could help me by just quoting the bit where you believe Andy was talking about a fused spur?

Kind Regrads, John

Page one, post three.

 

[JohnW2]

Perhaps you could help me by just quoting the bit where you believe Andy was talking about a fused spur?

Page one, post three.

That's what I presumed you meant - and, as I explained a couple of posts back, that is not about a 'fused spur' (from the ring). It is (or appeared to be) about connecting lighting via an FCU to an (the existing) unfused spur feeding the socket - which, as I said, is the reason PBoD responded in the way he did.

I'm sorry, but I can't think of any simpler or clearer way to explain.

Kind Regards, John