Gas pipes notched through bottom of ceiling joists

[Tobbs]

Hi All
I'm currently having the existing basement of my Edwardian semi-detached property made more 'user friendly' via the installation of a proprietary (Triton) cavity drain system, plaster board/plaster walls & ceilings & a wooden floor. One of the main tasks is to 'hide' the myriad of existing services (water, electric, central heating & gas) which have been installed, extended & de-commissioned on, over & through the basement walls & ceilings over the last 100 years behind the new walls & ceiling.

When we bought the property the gas pipe that runs between the meter & the boiler (28mm dia @ circa 6 metres long) was installed directly below the existing lath & plaster ceiling with pipe clips. Having removed the old ceiling the plan now is to move this pipe up into the void between the new ceiling & the floor above however...

In order to do this the builder is proposing to run the pipe through notches in the joists such that the gas pipe would sit just above the new plasterboard. I realise that notching the bottom of joists is not permitted by the building codes & having a gas pipe almost touching a plaster ceiling doesn't feel quite right to me however the builder tells me that's how its 'always done' for basement conversions such as this. To be fair to him the 'conventional' way of doing this - removing the floorboards & installing the pipe from above - is totally impractical & the only other viable option I can see would be to drill the joists & use a (very) flexible 28mm dia gas pipe (the joists are a mix of 6"x3" & 6"x2" at about 350mm centres). Are such gas pipe available? Do I have any other options? Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks

 

[JohnD]

what is the ceiling height?

Are you planning to dig out the floor and add DPM and insulation?

how will the basement be used?

how damp is it?

 

[denso13]

I realise that notching the bottom of joists is not permitted by the building codes & having a gas pipe almost touching a plaster ceiling doesn't feel quite right to me

You've already said it, you can't notch the underside of the joints, especially a 30mm notch. I wouldn't want a gas just pipe just above a ceiling where, for example, even a short screw for a new light fitting could puncture the pipe.

 

[Tobbs]

Hi
Thanks for the reply
Ceiling height varies between 1.8m & 2.1m i.e. its tight in some areas for a 6" 3" unit like me

The existing unreinforced concrete floor (min 100mm thick) will remain though its been excavated around the perimeter to allow installation of a gravel surrounded 70mm slotted drain as part of the cavity wall drainage system. This connects to a sump with two pumps (one main & one standby) which outfall to the main house combined water drainage system

By DPM I assume you mean will the basement be waterproofed. If so yes, walls and floor, but the Triton system doesn't keep moisture out rather it contains it when it gets in & channels it to the sump. The system is installed by an approved contractor & comes with a supplier backed 10 year guarantee.

Usage will be unchanged - i.e. washing machine, dryer, pantry area & bathroom

While there is clearly evidence of moisture on the below ground external walls - flaking paint & some wet rot to the timber staircase - the basement isn't really damp. The contractor thinks the pumps will barely run as there's so little standing water/beads of moisture & I tend to agree with him. We've had all sorts of stuff stored down there for 20 years and nothing has ever got damp or mouldy
Cheers

 

[Tobbs]

You've already said it, you can't notch the underside of the joints, especially a 30mm notch. I wouldn't want a gas just pipe just above a ceiling where, for example, even a short screw for a new light fitting could puncture the pipe.

Well yes that's rather the point. I can't be the first person in the UK who's had a 100 year old basement conversion that necessitated moving an existing gas pipe into the floor void. Whats the solution?

 

[JohnD]

so your objection to a pipe on the surface of the wall is purely cosmetic

And you can't notch the joists

and you won't have enough headroom to conceal it with a false ceiling

and you can't put it in the floor

Try big coving, then.

or run it at skirting level where it will not be seen behind your cupboards and appliances.

If you get any taller you will have to dig out the floor, and at that point your options widen. Maybe now would be a good time to bite the bullet and get that done. any other time will be more inconvenient and costly.

 

[denso13]

Perhaps around the perimeter at high level and boxed in?

 

[muggles]

If your builder thinks notching the bottom 30mm out of a joist is perfectly acceptable, I hate to think what other dodgy practises they might be prepared to engage in and cover up in the hope nobody notices. Time to find a new builder?

Would Tracpipe help, if you can drill the joists? https://www.colglo.co.uk/product.php?product=TRACBFGP2810KIT

 

[Tobbs]

Hi Muggles
Tracpipe looks like a good option however I'm meeting some resistance from the perspective of "that's what we always do" & "there's nothing wrong with it". To move it on I've said if he can get sign off from a Gas Safe engineer to the effect of what he's proposing is OK then I'll go with it. Any thoughts?

 

[reds42]

My thoughts would be the builder sounds like an idiot and I'd not want them doing work on my house. Why would them finding another idiot to say notching the bottom of joists is OK make it acceptable to you when you already know its not?

 

[Tobbs]

My thoughts would be the builder sounds like an idiot and I'd not want them doing work on my house. Why would them finding another idiot to say notching the bottom of joists is OK make it acceptable to you when you already know its not?

This isn't a solution it's a different why of asking the question I've already asked! I have a problem (which as I've said I can't be the first person to encounter) how is it resolved? It's not hard. If you don't have any positive ideas don't bother chipping in. I'm the home owner. I shouldn't have to wade through the NHBC standards & gas regulations then post questions on DIY forums. As far as I'm concerned the building industry needs to get it's act together. Maybe focus your efforts on that?
Thanks

 

[muggles]

You don't need someone Gas Safe Registered to say it's OK, you need a structural engineer. If an SE will give you a written report saying that chopping 20% out of the bottom of the joist is OK then tell your builder to crack on. I agree with Reds though, I wouldn't want this monkey working in my house.

 

[denso13]

This isn't a solution it's a different why of asking the question I've already asked!

I really don't know what to say. You know it isn't correct and contrary to the building regulations and most have agreed on here. You should really be saying to the builder that you don't want the joists notched as proposed and they should find another solution.

The Gas Safe person should highlight this but may just fit the pipework into notches cut by someone else.

 

[reds42]

This isn't a solution it's a different why of asking the question I've already asked! I have a problem (which as I've said I can't be the first person to encounter) how is it resolved? It's not hard. If you don't have any positive ideas don't bother chipping in. I'm the home owner. I shouldn't have to wade through the NHBC standards & gas regulations then post questions on DIY forums. As far as I'm concerned the building industry needs to get it's act together. Maybe focus your efforts on that?
Thanks

People gave you alternative solutions, but you seem to be dismissing them and appear to want someone to tell you its ok for your builder to do it wrong.

You asked for thoughts I gave you mine. But its your house, do whatever you want to it, I don't really care.

 

[Nige F]

. As far as I'm concerned the building industry needs to get it's act together. Maybe focus your efforts on that?
Thanks

Are you looking for a Final Solution ? Perhaps you will find a gas fitter to accomodate you.