Routing 28mm Gas Pipe Through 7 Inch Joists

[bernardgreen]

The space between a ceiling and a floor does not need to be vented,

That space is a void.......

Down load and read the draft document from http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm ( free copy at http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56-draft.pdf )

(6) Where any installation pipework is not itself contained in a ventilated duct, no person shall install any installation pipework in any shaft, duct or void which is not adequately ventilated.

209 Regulation 19(2)(b) addresses the potential risk of gas leaking from pipework within a cavity in a wall, floor or standing. Such leakage may be difficult to detect and readily lead to the accumulation of an explosive gas/air mixture in the cavity, presenting a considerable hazard to building occupants and others. The protective measures required may include enclosing that part of the pipe which passes through the wall, floor or standing in a gas-tight sleeve which itself is ventilated to a safe position, preferably to open air. This approach also provides some protection against possible mechanical damage to pipework, eg arising from structural movement (see also regulation 19(5)). Any gap between the pipe and sleeve should be sealed with fire-retardant flexible sealant (see standards in the Legislative, normative and informative document list), but at one end only to ensure any leak cannot accumulate in the gap space

 

[FiremanT]

That space is a void.......

Down load and read the draft document from http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm ( free copy at http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56-draft.pdf )

Gas Safe advice is that the whole subject hah been researched and we categorically do not have to vent.

 

[bernardgreen]

Gas Safe advice is that the whole subject hah been researched and we categorically do not have to vent.

So GasSafe are not accepting the advice of the Health and Safety Executive. I provided the source for the HSE documents. Can you provide the source of a document from GasSafe giving the advice that ""we categorically do not have to vent "".

 

[bernardgreen]

It appears that echnical Bulletin 113 which deals with the research into available ventilation in modern floor voids states this .

Outcomes and Conclusions
What does all this mean? In simple terms, the research has proved that where gas installation pipework is installed in modern construction joisted floors (see Note 4) in single dwellings, there is sufficient adventitious ventilation of the floor construction to safely disperse any minor escape of gas that might occur. Therefore, there is no requirement to install additional purpose provided ventilation to floors of this construction in conventional masonry, timber frame or light steel frame single dwelling buildings.

sufficient adventitious ventilation, Define sufficient
minor escape Define minor

Hopefully engineers are trained and tested in the knowledge of how much adventitious ventilation is present in the floors involvesd in the installations they are working on and whether or not it is sufficient.

 

[durhamplumber]

It appears that echnical Bulletin 113 which deals with the research into available ventilation in modern floor voids states this .



sufficient adventitious ventilation, Define sufficient
minor escape Define minor

Hopefully engineers are trained and tested in the knowledge of how much adventitious ventilation is present in the floors involvesd in the installations they are working on and whether or not it is sufficient.

Good luck with that...Most engineers I know would not have a clue

 

[FiremanT]

FFS. Is that Ben I can hear, on his way?

It appears that echnical Bulletin 113 which deals with the research into available ventilation in modern floor voids states this .

sufficient adventitious ventilation, Define sufficient
minor escape Define minor

Hopefully engineers are trained and tested in the knowledge of how much adventitious ventilation is present in the floors involvesd in the installations they are working on and whether or not it is sufficient.

All RGI's (should) understand AV, but is practically impossible to measure AV without huge amounts if time and kit. And we don't have to. Most older houses will introduce far more than the allowable AV, but it was impossible to draught proof a house to the extent to deny ventilation to a level below that which can support complete combustion of 7kw of gas. Which is why we assumed enough ventilation for the first 7Kw (of most appliances) That is what we worked to, regardless of the ACTUAL AV. Even though the average customer ranted on about a gale blowing in around there old doors and windows

Then modern construction methods were developed.............


The same is true of under floorboards/above ceilings. We don't have to work anything out, as the powers that be have calculated that we don't have to worry about it

 

[bernardgreen]

We have a definition os minor gas leak....
""minor gas leakage is “that which would remain undetected by normal soundness testing techniques”"

and a definition of sufficient....
“the [ sufficient] level of ventilation is not intended to clear a major gas escape arising from damage or failure of a gas pipe.”"

as the powers that be have calculated that we don't have to worry about it

Passing the buck to the powers that be and thus avoiding anything that could be a worry.

 

[John D v2.0]

Nice detective work there, so from that I get that basically they have decreed scientificallys that there's no need to worry or use additional judgement, it can in normal houses always be assumed that gas will be smelt before a dangerous buildup occurs.
So fireman t I shouldn't have doubted, you're Spot onplus I learnt not to be so conservative in that situation.
Ours was going under floor anyway so doesn't affect me,

 

[FiremanT]

We have a definition os minor gas leak....
""minor gas leakage is “that which would remain undetected by normal soundness testing techniques”"

and a definition of sufficient....
“the [ sufficient] level of ventilation is not intended to clear a major gas escape arising from damage or failure of a gas pipe.”"



Passing the buck to the powers that be and thus avoiding anything that could be a worry.

Are you saying that we should vent regardless? How do YOU calculate AV?
Have you ever told a householder that you are going to provide, and charge for, something that your governing body has decreed unnecessary?

Have you ever listened to yourself?

 

[John D v2.0]

I think Bernard has provided enough official material for everyone to make their own mind up based on the facts.
Personally I think it's very clear, and I think reading the material is much quicker than having a discussion.

 

[Razor900]

Hands up everyone that's actually qualified to work on gas in this thread

 

[Wildcat1961]

We have a definition os minor gas leak....
""minor gas leakage is “that which would remain undetected by normal soundness testing techniques”"
.

“Soundness testing” was abolished years ago, we now refer to it as “tightness testing”
Armchair googlers strike yet again.

 

[bernardgreen]

Hands up everyone that's actually qualified to work on gas in this thread

And hands up everyone who is able to think for themselves

Armchair googlers strike yet again.

The comment "" “that which would remain undetected by normal soundness testing techniques”" came in an e-mail from GasSafe

The Commentary & Recommendations to BS 6891:1998 (incorporating Amendment Nos. 1 & 2), 8.7.1, advised that minor gas leakage is “that which would remain undetected by normal soundness testing techniques” and further “the level of ventilation is not intended to clear a major gas escape arising from damage or failure of a gas pipe.”

 

[Dan Robinson]

Naughty Gas Safe.

Why are they calling it soundness testing?

Sounds like Bernie has bored another poor bastad to the point of wishing they 15 years away from hearing from him.

 

[bernardgreen]

Naughty Gas Safe.

Naughty HSE quoting from http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/gaspipework.htm who used the word soundness
http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/gaspipework.htm#how
How often should the pipework be checked?
Installation pipework is not covered by the annual gas safety check. But we recommend that when you request a safety check, you ask your Gas Safe registered engineer to:

• test for soundness on the whole gas system, including installation pipework
• visually examine the pipework (as far as is reasonably practicable)

You should also ask your Gas Safe registered engineer to examine the installation pipework if there is any damage, for example if the tenant reports a suspected gas leak.

When tenants vacate your premises, it is good practice to ask your engineer to inspect and test the pipework