Helicopter and crane.

[sooey]

There's going to be a long expensive delay on that building now while they sort that crane out.
There is a crane at the top of a building in manhattan which looked like this after the hurricane, they're still trying to sort that one out now.
That one's higher up than this, but even so this one is higher than any mobile crane can reach so they may have to build another to bring this one down. Whatever happens the insurance cover for that helicopter is in for a terrible hiding.

 

[Deluks]

I knew one of the victims, a lovely bloke he was too.
A sad day.

 

[sooey]

Was that the lad who was walking to work? Poor b*gger.

 

[wotan]

There is one thing certain...it could have been a lot worse, I imagine the orientation of the crane's jib may have contributed to the helicopter's pilot not seeing it till the last minute, too late to take avoiding action.
Condolences to the familys of the deceased, and speedy recovery to the injured.

Wotan

 

[empip]

http://www.pprune.org/7636453-post147.html

...Here we have an approach to Heathrow which takes up everything down to 3,000 feet. Under that is the easterly approach to London City, which was indeed on easterlies this morning (although, being down there at the time, most of these ended up as missed approaches periodically audible in the fog up above). Squeezed under all this is H4, a standard helicopter routing which follows the river, maximum altitude 1,000 feet, and even for those not following this track, is the routing into London's principal heliport, which is riverside.

Then a developer proposes and builds a huge high rise (higher than the BT Tower), in isolation from the groups in The City and Canary Wharf, and which now dominates the skyline (when Cavok) in inner south-west London, 600 feet (181m) high, and right on the river (and the aforementioned helicopter route), and with a crane alongside which reaches well above this maximum.

And then we say we take risk assessments seriously ...... but somehow the tower is hit before it is even completed...

Planning, what is that?

I wonder why the diversion was into Battersea Heli-port and not elsewhere with a safer approach / better facilities for operations in poor visibility ?

Had the crane been tower type with horizontal jib I guess the helicopter may have merely overflown it if flying under a thousand feet, but above the noted crane height... Not much margin for error, when combined with a need to be under the mist.
...UK Civil Aviation Authority issued a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) warning of a jib crane at a height of 770ft near London Heliport. It says the obstacle would be "lit at night"...

-0-

 

[chapeau]

Pprune is frequented by pilots who.always blame somebody else.

Waste of time having lights on a crane if the cloud starts at 100ft

 

[RigidRaider]

London commuters ought to wear jobsworth jackets and helmets, all kinds of stuff moves around that could hit them.

 

[longdogs]

Gave up working around there when the parking tickets and clamping scam was costing more than a days pay

Me too mate. I got so sick of it, I left London for good. I remember when one warden and one copper would walk around together and give a ticket each for the same parking offence.

 

[Wolfie1969]

Pprune is frequented by pilots who.always blame somebody else.

Waste of time having lights on a crane if the cloud starts at 100ft

Maybe because it is the professional PILOTS rumour forum?!

First accident of a helicopter over London ever... it's likely the real cause will never be known.

PW

 

[wotan]

A fair assumption might be pilot error?

Wotan

 

[Wolfie1969]

A fair assumption might be pilot error?

Wotan

Or...

- mechanical problem (engine/gearbox/drivetrain).
- bird strike.
- electrical failure (loss of navigation kit/instruments).
- catastrophic failure of the rotor system/airframe.

Helicopters are only required to remain clear of cloud and visual with the ground under Visual Flight Rules. He may have been on an Instrument Flight Rules operation, most 109s are IFR capable.

Proper (especially high intensity) lighting is visible in daylight and poor weather despite what the media would have you believe.

Flying over London is high work load at the best of times if single pilot operations and he had a problem with the aircraft, especially if a controllability one it would not have taken much to stray off course into the crane. Or the crane could just have been in the way after a problem with the aircraft.

Remember this was a very experienced commercial pilot not a weekend flyer. He had 10 - 12 thousand hours as a pilot, many of the commercial jet pilots that fly you to your holiday destination will have as few as 2000...

The Air Accident Investigation Bureau are one of the best and most through in the world, if there is a reason to be found they will likely find it. Fortunately they are independent from politics, media and commercial interests so are trusted in the industry to be fair.

As I said we may never know for sure the actual cause - the only one who could have (possibly) given that answer is no longer with us.

And yes I do have a commercial helicopter pilot licence before anyone asks.

W.

 

[chapeau]

And yes I do have a commercial helicopter pilot licence before anyone asks.

W.

in that case you will understand these...

TAF EGLC 160459Z 1606/1615 08004KT 0800 FZFG BKN001
TEMPO 1606/1609 0300
BECMG 1609/1612 8000 NSW FEW004=

TAF EGLL 160457Z 1606/1712 04004KT 2500 BR SCT002 BKN004
TEMPO 1606/1610 1200 BKN001
PROB30 TEMPO 1606/1609 0700 FZFG
BECMG 1609/1611 6000 NSW FEW006
PROB30 TEMPO 1612/1619 9999
BECMG 1622/1701 3000 BR
TEMPO 1702/1710 1200
PROB30 1703/1709 0700 FZFG BKN001=

TAF EGKK 160457Z 1606/1712 07005KT 0300 FZFG BKN001
TEMPO 1606/1610 1000 BR BKN002
BECMG 1610/1613 6000 NSW FEW015
BECMG 1618/1621 2000 BR
PROB40 1623/1710 0300 FZFG VV///
BECMG 1710/1712 6000 NSW=

(To others, those are aviation weather forecasts for Heathrow, City, Gatwick for the time of the accident. They are nasty nasty nasty)

The actual observed conditions at the time were consistent with the forecasts.

Broken Clouds at 100ft at your destination would stop a lot of airlines taking off.

Would you decide to cross London in a helicopter with those forecasts? Almost zero visibility and icing conditions in the clouds almost certain.

They have the wreckage, body, weather, CCTV. He will have been talking to a controller and that will be on tape.

They will determine probable cause quite quickly. The 'why' might take a bit longer, but they will already have spoken to anybody who was around when he was deciding to go.

 

[Wolfie1969]

And yes I do have a commercial helicopter pilot licence before anyone asks.

W.

in that case you will understand these...

TAF EGLC 160459Z 1606/1615 08004KT 0800 FZFG BKN001
TEMPO 1606/1609 0300
BECMG 1609/1612 8000 NSW FEW004=

TAF EGLL 160457Z 1606/1712 04004KT 2500 BR SCT002 BKN004
TEMPO 1606/1610 1200 BKN001
PROB30 TEMPO 1606/1609 0700 FZFG
BECMG 1609/1611 6000 NSW FEW006
PROB30 TEMPO 1612/1619 9999
BECMG 1622/1701 3000 BR
TEMPO 1702/1710 1200
PROB30 1703/1709 0700 FZFG BKN001=

TAF EGKK 160457Z 1606/1712 07005KT 0300 FZFG BKN001
TEMPO 1606/1610 1000 BR BKN002
BECMG 1610/1613 6000 NSW FEW015
BECMG 1618/1621 2000 BR
PROB40 1623/1710 0300 FZFG VV///
BECMG 1710/1712 6000 NSW=

(To others, those are aviation weather forecasts for Heathrow, City, Gatwick for the time of the accident. They are nasty nasty nasty)

The actual observed conditions at the time were consistent with the forecasts.

Broken Clouds at 100ft at your destination would stop a lot of airlines taking off.

Would you decide to cross London in a helicopter with those forecasts? Almost zero visibility and icing conditions in the clouds almost certain.

They have the wreckage, body, weather, CCTV. He will have been talking to a controller and that will be on tape.

They will determine probable cause quite quickly. The 'why' might take a bit longer, but they will already have spoken to anybody who was around when he was deciding to go.

Yes I understand them. Maybe you might like to decode them for others - unless you just cut and pasted them from the web and Googled the decode? Is nasty, nasty nasty an official definition or a media type hype?

Can you quote your source of actuals that confirm the forecast were accurate? Met office aftercasts? Met reports from trained/qualified observers at the accident site?

Broken clouds at destination would not prevent airlines taking off - the reason the regulations require alternate/diversion airports plus fuel to reach alternate.

If on an IFR flight plan with a current IFR rated pilot why would you not fly across London if you can comply with the regulations?

Again your interpretation of the visibility and icing conditions are speculation - unless you were there?

They (I assume you mean the AAIB) will have the wreckage eventually although it will take many weeks to reconstruct it, they won't have the body - that will be with the coroner and I am guessing in a state that will reveal little about any medical problems, the weather will be from local reporting stations - probably not one at the crash site so will be interpolated from the nearest reliable sources. Given your assessment of the weather CCTV will be of little use, if indeed any CCTV was pointed at the sky. Video or photographs from bystanders is always useful and I am sure the AAIB would be grateful if anyone can provide this.

It appears he was not talking to any ATC facility at the time of the accident so only the previous conversations prior to being handed off to another facility will be on tape. Battersea heliport have already stated they were not talking to him at the time.

AAIB are very detailed and having visited their unit at Farnborough I doubt that there will be a conclusive report issued for many months, even with the co-operation of the operator. As previously stated the only one that could given a definitive response to his thought process and decisions can never answer the questions.

W,

 

[chapeau]

Does anybody know if these cranes pick up a layer of ice when in clouds at below freezing temps? They must be susceptible to it in the same way as aircraft are. is it an issue with cranes too?

 

[joe-90]

Why is the guy being hailed a hero just because he was a nice chap?

If I go out in the fog in my car and kill an innocent pedestrian - would I be hailed a hero? Or a bloody fool that should be jailed?