HETAS Engineers a bunch of lying so and so's....

[joinerjohn]

I used to be self employed (for about 15yrs) Subcontracting to building companies etc. Did loads of new build work and renovations etc. I now work part time (due to health reasons)
I honestly can't see why others should mark up goods supplied to extortionate levels though, then expect to charge a couple of hundred pounds (per day) to fit them.

In the case I cite, the cheapest garage was marking up the w/pump and cambelt, by over 100% and then wanted to charge me almost £300 labour for a job which should take their mechanic no more than 3 hours. Ask any motor mechanic what their hourly rate is . It certainly won't come even close to £100 per hour.

 

[expertgasman]

Ask any motor mechanic what their hourly rate is . It certainly won't come even close to £100 per hour.

Obviously not! The mechanic is the fee earner, but the girl in accounts, the guy who worked out the quote and oredred the parts, the council rates, insurance bla bla, ALL come out of the "profit" on parts and the labour.

Doing site work, with respect, is far removed from working in peoples homes, going out to measure, and carrying insurance etc. Most site workers are home by 5 pm. If I'm at home at 6.30, I consider it early.

 

[joinerjohn]

Obviously not! The mechanic is the fee earner, but the girl in accounts, the guy who worked out the quote and oredred the parts, the council rates, insurance bla bla, ALL come out of the "profit" on parts and the labour.

Doing site work, with respect, is far removed from working in peoples homes, going out to measure, and carrying insurance etc. Most site workers are home by 5 pm. If I'm at home at 6.30, I consider it early.

Hmm, at least two of the garages I rang, have a couple of mechanics and the boss man (who sits in the shed he calls his office) who rings round for parts, and mucks in at busy times. So less overheads than you make out.
FFS , how much profit do you want to make on parts? A couple of phone calls (cost around 20p) to order then and they get delivered anyway (usually free), but no ,,, most places want to try and maximise profit , so charge almost double what the part costs.
As for "Most site workers are home by 5pm" What sites have you worked on? The only time I was home by 5pm was during the winter months. In the summertime, the latest I finished was around 9 or 10pm. As a sub contractor I was still obliged to have public liability insurance too.

The point I was originally making though,, I could go out and price up someone's kitchen for them and buy the units at Howdens (let's say for £1200) and £1000 for labour. I'd charge them £1250 for the kitchen units to cover my running around., whereas some people would be charging them £2000 for the kitchen units and still another £1000 for fitting them.
Which one is the rip off artiste?

PS looking at the time you posted your reply, it must have been an exceptionally slack day for you.

 

[gasbanni]

Seems you fitted the flue ok, but has it been back filled or just run down from the chimney to the register plate ?

Best practice is to back fill, not just drop the liner. There are various reasons for this.

So it may be the case they were quoting for a little more than you expected and there has been a case of cross purpose's in what what expected on both sides.

If they are registered I suspect they were thinking of

Fitting the register plate.
Fitting the liner.
Back filling with all the work and materials it entails.
Clamping the liner.
Fitting the chimney pot .
Flaunching the stack
fitting a bird guard.

No installer would dream of using an unlined stack without checking it
first and that could take an hour alone all told.

But there are cowboys in every field thats true !

 

[mbga9pgf]

Back filled with lica fill, which kept the flue lining very tight in the stack. Used a flue hangar cowl with 2x clamp at the top => no need to frig round with flaunching, which was fine on existing pot. Finished all work in 6 hours, 2 hours to fit flue,backfill, attach to pot hangar, rest to cut stainless register plate, attach to adapter, fit to existing flue pipe (cut to size using grinder then resprayed to cover cut bare stainless).

It was my first go, although I had thoroughly read the regs.

6 hours, first go. how does this translate to 1200 quid when materials cost under 600? This includes CO detector.

http://www.fluesupplies.com/

are doing 904/904 with free pot hanger, flue adapter, cement and nose cone if you order 7 metres or more. 904/904 at 30 quid a metre, vice 60 quid a metre for 904/316 we were originally qoted.

As for all this crap about waiting for bits online, if this were my primary job, I would bulkbuy in advance direct from manufacture, or at least get a few regularly used bits, register plates, CO detectors, Stove fans etc, then buy from the above who offer next day recorded delivery if you need it. Which, bearing in mind lead times for trade from quote to installation, is very unlikely. I managed it for 600 without even mentioning bulk discount I know I could negotiate if I were doing it regularly.

Theft by trade, monopoly by HETAS.

 

[gasbanni]

If Ive got this right you were quoted approx £1200, materials slightly under £600.

So it equates to £600 for the day and the job ? roughly ?

So take tax off it, vehicle running costs public liability, training aspect,
plus registration fee ancillary bits and pieces, tools needed and I would think it would be two men ? and the risk aspect.
Plus the responsibility of the job.........

My wife always used to go on about the cost of a cup of tea in a cafe or whatever ........only using a Tea BAg !!!!!! and hot water !!
always had to remind her wages premises tax council tax heating lighting etc etc.........
To me £600 is ok £1200 for the labour or more yeah rip off but £600 to me no mate I cant agree.
ITs not like that £600 is all going in his pocket ! although it might feel like it is. You sound like your handy and could do it yourself fair enough, good on you ! youll still have to get building control or someone to sign it off, if you dont you coulg get fined and your house insurance wont be valid.
As a matter of interest how much did it cost to get it registered ?

 

[mbga9pgf]

I didnt bother in the end. 150 quid to get some jobsworth from building control to look at a register plate, see I have done a good job, and sign it off. He cant take off the register plate due to the lica backfill, nor will mr jobsworth be getting on the roof. "Could get fined" Could, with about as much chance as I "could win the lottery".

As I have said, I have followed the regs to the tee. Very much like my DIY rewire, which saved me a fortune. Although in the rewire, I had a full set of tests run and submain work done via a registered spark, the key to DIY is Know your limits! "Insurance... fines... blah blah blah". heard it all before. Show me a single example of someone done for doing a fully compliant install either under Part P, Part J or Part L (outside of work requiring planning permission). You cant. And I tell you why. The council will not touch a DIYer completing fully compliant work with a bargepole, as they would be torn a new @rsehole in any court in this land. Not to say they shouldnt prosecute, which they rightly do, when there is evidence of noncompliance with building regs, which is fully understandable.

WRT Insurance, I previously had a brick flue which now has a stainless liner. Brick flue worked for years without, but I have now improved the safety by adding a stainless liner and CO detector. Would love to see again an insurer taken to court purely due to a lack of notification.

Sorry, your 600 for labour just demonstrates how far HETAS have their head up their backsides. CORGI/NICEIC day rate is under 200 a day. Dont they have the same in the way of overheads? And I am talking 8 AM to 6 PM. Why on earth do HETAS think they can get away with 600 for a 6 hour job. I will tell you why, the typical crud spouted that I encountered, otherwise known as "sharp" practice!

 

[gasbanni]

Obviously I wasnt there to hear what was said, The fine bit is up to you
theres a link on here to someone who was fined £6,500 if i remember correctly........and he set fire to his house and wasnt covered under his house insurance.


Its just that to me solid fuel is a risky area and not as simple or safe as people seem to think, theres a lot of regs covering it all and personally I dont see it as a diy job.

 

[mbga9pgf]

Obviously I wasnt there to hear what was said, The fine bit is up to you
theres a link on here to someone who was fined £6,500 if i remember correctly........and he set fire to his house and wasnt covered under his house insurance.


Its just that to me solid fuel is a risky area and not as simple or safe as people seem to think, theres a lot of regs covering it all and personally I dont see it as a diy job.

If he set his house on fire, I am willing to take a guess that his install wasnt compliant!

 

[gasbanni]

True he still got done for not notifying building control ! that was the main reason for the fine ! oh and not being competant !

 

[mbga9pgf]

True he still got done for not notifying building control ! that was the main reason for the fine ! oh and not being competant !

But would BC have bothered if he hadn't set fire to his house? I return to my original question, Can BC prosecute if you as a DIYer complete a fully compliant install? If so, show me evidence they have. Would there be the political will at the council to prosecute someone for completing a fully compliant install? I say, no.

Doesn't get round the fact local HETAS registered installers cheated themselves out of a reasonable day rate and were taking the pi$$ by quoting £600 for 6 hours work!

 

[gasbanni]

Doesnt matter if its compliant or not its notifiable under building control, if its not notified thats what you get done for, not for the standard of the install.

The other thing you find is that neighbours complain about the smell (of the smoke) so you might find enviromental health calling and wanting to know what your burning. Stove details etc especially if you live in a smokeless zone will be required.

 

[mbga9pgf]

Doesnt matter if its compliant or not its notifiable under building control, if its not notified thats what you get done for, not for the standard of the install.

The other thing you find is that neighbours complain about the smell (of the smoke) so you might find enviromental health calling and wanting to know what your burning. Stove details etc especially if you live in a smokeless zone will be required.

I still havent seen a single prosecution across the trades (bar gas, interference with transco network, and electricity, fiddling meters) for diy work undertaken that is fully compliant.And both of those examples are non compliant. I will tell you why the council wont touch me. If they prosecute me, I will take them to court, which will then cost them lots of money. They will then have to pay an expert to state what the issues with the install are, which they will not find, as my install is compliant. At which point the magistrate would throw out the case. You may not like that as trade, but the last thing the council want is to come across as big brother and interfering. The council, having already spent a fortune on legal action, will then face local negative PR for wasting taxpayers money.

Oh, I checked on smoke control stuff when we bought the house, fortunately, the Home information pack had some useful info like whether we are in a smoke control area. We are not. Also, we already had a stove fitted when we moved in, so I was simply improving an existing install (which HETAS engineers refused to do as I didnt initially want flexible flue lining initially). Doesnt get around the fact that local HETAS engineers did themselves out of a day rate does it. Dont expect me to lose any sleep over it!

 

[Goldspoon]

There is no law in this country that says what a person or company should charge for their work. Customer says what they desire ... provider gives a price. If customer desires they proceed. If not they do not. A person who chooses to charge high is not a criminal or a con man based on that criteria alone.

The reason Hetas engineers are charging high is to to with supply and demand.

A question: Would the OP, if he were a Hetas engineer, charge the 200 a day he suggests... if all competing Hetas engineers in the area were managing 400 a day and all had waiting lists and the phone were ringing off the hook?

 

[mbga9pgf]

there needs to be a competing professional body in the marketplace. All well and good but any other trade doesnt seem to get away with robbery and neither should hetas.

I still think it had more to do with supplied parts and being unable to scam me out of cash in ramping up massively the price of materials.