Hey Dex, new teaching initiative.

[Whitespirit66]

As kids, we feared and respected things in equal measure, eg. teachers, parents, local bobby. Fear is somehow necessary and most come through the experience unscathed and as better people. Anyone who remembers those days and witnesses the anything goes 'I know my rights society' that we have today will be able to decide whether it was better then or now. If the wrongdoers aren't fearful, then everyone lives in fear.

The best comment of the year.

Absolutely right.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am genuinely torn on this subject.

Whilst I agree with Whitespirit's post as it is factually correct, the reason for the conditions of the past are that we were kept in ignorance and suppressed by authority and religion.

Because of the modern communications systems it is now possible to see that those in control are generally not fit to be in that position and there are few who actually deserve respect. A lot to be despised.

There being as many scum at the top as there are at the bottom, it is the mass of genuine people in the middle who have to suffer and pay for it.

Not being content with achieving an 'enlightened society' in previously oppressed and persecuted sections of society, it is now deemed necessary to veer completely in the opposite direction and ram down our throats all the idiotic and irresponsible behaviour anyone wishes to get up to.

We now have radio and television reporters who think, if they do at all, that we are as simple as they and some who cannot speak properly on the pretence that it is supposed to make us more tolerant.
If you cannot do properly the only thing the job entails, I'm sorry you cannot do it. Hence I am not appearing at Covent Garden tonight.

We have newspaper reporters who cannot write properly and exaggerate and sensationalise everything no matter how trivial.
Sports commentators who think it necessary to shout and scream inanely when something which is supposed to happen does.

The dregs who are not intelligent enough to realise how thick they are (bottom and top) and who, had they any self respect would not get involved, are paraded in front of us as entertainment.

Is it any wonder that bad behaviour is accepted as the norm when such behaviour and drivel is all around us?

I believe it is a chinese saying that 'people are like water; if it is not controlled then it will flood' (topical) BUT -

Who really is fit to do the controlling?

 

[Micilin]

I am genuinely torn on this subject...............................I believe it is a chinese saying that 'people are like water; if it is not controlled then it will flood' (topical) BUT -

Who really is fit to do the controlling?

Thoughtful post, well worth the read.

 

[Micilin]

JBR - wrt to Finland.

You make a good point about society, but I feel I am taking that into consideration as well. However, your remarks have led to to do a bit more exploring after this post

The actual process of learning in Finland is better than here. If we are deriding our system as too lax, then Finland is less lax - or rather it builds respect. But it is not a caning nation. So where is that middle ground to be found.
I disagree that all is lost in terms of society. I know plenty of parents who care about their children, and I feel today young people get a lot of stick over a minority. (I do some work in education and with young adults, but I am not a teacher)

Part of this is political decisions, part philospohy of teaching v learning and a major part is the fact that teachers are valued professionals.

Finland aside ,There are examples of schools in deprived areas that succeed,and in affluent areas there are failing schools . In the same small town thre can be examples of each - which suggests that while society must play a part, the school ethos and will to carry it out is vital.
there are loads of examples of failing schools that have been turned around by a new head. Perhaps more money plays a part, but the school is still in the same society as it was under the old head.

So probably a range of factors , and I don't think we should copy anyone,. But we should certainly look at the best there is and take from it what we can.

 

[ajstoneservices]

I think some are looking back with rose tinted glasses as usual and forget how recently corporal punishment in schools was ended. And more importantly, why.

You might want to spend a little time reading the final debate in parliament that brought it to an end.

Mr. Graham Bright (Luton, South)

The importance of discipline and order in our schools as a condition for successful teaching and learning is understood by everyone. The fact that there are widely differing views, certainly in the Conservative party, about the principle and practice of corporal punishment is not surprising. It is essential that we resolve this dispute tonight.

I am opposed to corporal punishment in schools, for two main reasons. First, it is wrong in principle for children to be exposed to physical sanctions and pain which would bring criminal proceedings if they were exercised on an adult. We have outlawed corporal punishment in every area, including in the armed services, yet we reserve it for young people. It is absent from adult life, and it is wholly wrong to impose it on the young. Its practice is undoubtedly humiliating to the teacher who imposes it and to the pupil who receives it. The art of teaching lies in gaining the attention and winning the respect of pupils, and the power to inflict pain is fundamentally incompatible with that objective. In the debate we have heard a call for the cane in the corner. It is a symbol of fear and does not in any way produce the sort of environment for education, teaching, or learning.

My second objection is that corporal punishment is not generally effective. It may be a deterrent to some children, but to others it certainly is not. Children from broken or disturbed homes where physical punishment is the rule rather than the exception are taught that problems can be solved by force. All too often that lesson has tragic consequences later in life. Some teenagers relish a record of punishment as a status symbol, and the same name often crops up again and again in punishment books, often for the same offence. That proves conclusively that corporal punishment is not a deterrent.

It is by no means clear where the borderline between reasonable and moderate lies. Beating a child with a stick cannot possibly be considered to be moderate or reasonable. It is violent. All too often teachers step across that borderline, with disastrous results. Indeed, that is clearly illustrated in a picture in this evening's London Standard. Innumerable similar cases can be reported. They are not isolated instances. A youngster of eight had his finger twisted for the rest of his life because of caning. A youngster of 11 had his finger broken because of caning. A youngster of nine had bleeding hands because he was caned merely for bad work and nothing worse. I would not 235 vote in favour of corporal punishment if I thought that one of those instances would happen, let alone the whole list that can he produced.

The problem now is to reach a coherent solution. In Scotland corporal punishment has been officially discouraged since 1968 and pupils on reaching their majority at 16 become exempt, unless they choose otherwise. In England and Wales local education authorities and school governing bodies have been able to determine their schools' policies. It is no accident that in recent years there has been a strong drift towards abolition in line with the rest of Europe. The tendency has increased since the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the philosophical convictions of parents had to be respected.

I do not believe that giving local education authorities and school governing bodies the option to retain or relinquish corporal punishment is a coherent policy. It is a recipe for local particularism. It will lead to neighbouring schools and authorities having entirely different disciplinary sanctions.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1986/jul/22/abolition-of-corporal-punishment


I wonder how many of you beat your children, wives or pets to gain their respect.

 

[JBR]

Well, perhaps you're right. Time will tell.

I still believe that our society has more problems than those of other western European countries, and I'd be interested in finding how others would solve the problem.

Or maybe leave things as they are?

 

[Micilin]

Well, perhaps you're right. Time will tell.

I still believe that our society has more problems than those of other western European countries, and I'd be interested in finding how others would solve the problem.

Or maybe leave things as they are?

We probably have different problems rather than more?

As long as it is being explored with open minds then perhaps things wil improve. The difficulty is that schools which have been turned around are individual cases, so hard to get a one size fits all solution

 

[JBR]

Well, perhaps you're right. Time will tell.

I still believe that our society has more problems than those of other western European countries, and I'd be interested in finding how others would solve the problem.

Or maybe leave things as they are?

We probably have different problems rather than more?

As long as it is being explored with open minds then perhaps things wil improve. The difficulty is that schools which have been turned around are individual cases, so hard to get a one size fits all solution

Well I shall not hold my breath as, in my experience, we have been 'exploring things with open minds' for decades now with no evidence of changing for the better.

Elements of our society just laugh at the police and the courts (with good reason) and as children continue to be brought up in the same way by these people the situation is not going to improve.

Still, we live in a democracy and, providing that the majority of the electorate are happy with the situation, I accept that we'll have to live with the status quo. Just don't bleat about it afterwards!