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Big_Spark said:
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Big_Spark
Simon Simon Simon....
Of course they all work to ESQCR2002 AS A MINIMUM, but there is nothing to stop them working to a higher standard voluntarilly..and if this suits their business model and achieves their aims it would be perfectly normal. The LEB used to work beyond the Electricity Supply Act. I'm not saying this is the case here, but is a possibility.
As for identifying the cable...why do you need too, you have no legal requirement to work on it so you need not know if your a layment. A spark should be able to identify the cable type using their eyes and knowledge of cable types. I think we all know how to identify a SWA, Concentril, Lead insulated, Oil Impregnated ans several other types of supply cable.
Regarding the responsibility for the EXISTING earth connection, or an unearthed conductive sheath....read the ESQCR 2002..you will find it.
After repeating this point numerous times in one thread I cannot be asked to look it up again...but it is there..If I recall it is in Part III section 8.( could be wrong on that bit though)
Of course they all work to ESQCR2002 AS A MINIMUM, but there is nothing to stop them working to a higher standard voluntarilly..and if this suits their business model and achieves their aims it would be perfectly normal. The LEB used to work beyond the Electricity Supply Act. I'm not saying this is the case here, but is a possibility.
As for identifying the cable...why do you need too, you have no legal requirement to work on it so you need not know if your a layment. A spark should be able to identify the cable type using their eyes and knowledge of cable types. I think we all know how to identify a SWA, Concentril, Lead insulated, Oil Impregnated ans several other types of supply cable.
Regarding the responsibility for the EXISTING earth connection, or an unearthed conductive sheath....read the ESQCR 2002..you will find it.
After repeating this point numerous times in one thread I cannot be asked to look it up again...but it is there..If I recall it is in Part III section 8.( could be wrong on that bit though)
Big_Spark : --
It appears that Plugwash, Securespark, Spark123, Philrosenbury & I all disagree with you.
I suggest you show your EDF friend the WHOLE of this thread, and then post his opinion.
It appears that Plugwash, Securespark, Spark123, Philrosenbury & I all disagree with you.
I suggest you show your EDF friend the WHOLE of this thread, and then post his opinion.
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Big_Spark
Chris.J said:
ChrisJ, Plugwash is not an expert, so to be honest I tend to ignore his posts, Simon is, and I read them and note what he says, I think he is simply not reading the ESQCR 2002 in the same way as Engineers in the DNO's do or my reading of it (which may be tainted by friends in the industry). Phil is a DIYer..and with respect to Phil, he is agreeing with Plug on a misguided principle. Simon and I are simply seeing the Regs from a different perspective so I am not sure if Phil is taking Simons posts into account.
As for you, I know NOTHING about you.
No-one is argueing that the DNO's does not have a responsibility, the simple fact is some seem to think they have none with TT systems..which is unfathomable as they have it with all other supply types, no-one has given a rational explanation for why this would be the case, electrically, legally or morally.
Personally I don't care whose responsibility it is, as I know it is not mine, and this entire thread began due to someone being happy with their main earth connection being a 2.5mm² link to an earth rod..which is a CLEAR breach of BS7671:2004
Big_Spark said:
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Big_Spark
Chris, a posters background is relevent to this type of discussion as it contains a host of technical knowledge, legal information, personal experience and access to technical people in the field.
Now I am not saying that your or Plugs input is invalid, of course it is not, but I have posted enough information if this thread for others to read the information. I don't remember who, but someone posted a link to the ESQCR 2002, that contains much of the relevent information, as do other bits of legislation.
The simple fact is that if an Earth connection exists on a supply cable...IT IS THE LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY of the DNO, it is irrelevent what the supply type is. Further, if the supply cable has a conductive armour or similar type of sheath, then it must be connected to earth as exposed parts if not forming part of the protective conductor. This is a rare situation as most cables with such metalwork are either TN-S or TN-C-S, so they have a connection to earth through the DNO's network. Personally I have never seen, in 23 years, a TT cable that required an earth connection, so I have no personal experience of this situation, but I have discussed it with an EDF engineer who has been in the industry for almost 35 years and that is where I take my guidance from, well and the ESQCR 2002. The information is there, as it was in the old Supply Regulations Act.
At no point has it been suggested that in a "normal" TT, that is one connected to installation relying on a rod/matt/mesh for it's earth protection, does the DNO have a responsibility to provide an earth connection to an EXISTING installation, however they do if the installation is new, been upgraded or replaced. However it is unlikely they would install a TT, more likely a PME, so this is likely a moot point.
Now I am not saying that your or Plugs input is invalid, of course it is not, but I have posted enough information if this thread for others to read the information. I don't remember who, but someone posted a link to the ESQCR 2002, that contains much of the relevent information, as do other bits of legislation.
The simple fact is that if an Earth connection exists on a supply cable...IT IS THE LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY of the DNO, it is irrelevent what the supply type is. Further, if the supply cable has a conductive armour or similar type of sheath, then it must be connected to earth as exposed parts if not forming part of the protective conductor. This is a rare situation as most cables with such metalwork are either TN-S or TN-C-S, so they have a connection to earth through the DNO's network. Personally I have never seen, in 23 years, a TT cable that required an earth connection, so I have no personal experience of this situation, but I have discussed it with an EDF engineer who has been in the industry for almost 35 years and that is where I take my guidance from, well and the ESQCR 2002. The information is there, as it was in the old Supply Regulations Act.
At no point has it been suggested that in a "normal" TT, that is one connected to installation relying on a rod/matt/mesh for it's earth protection, does the DNO have a responsibility to provide an earth connection to an EXISTING installation, however they do if the installation is new, been upgraded or replaced. However it is unlikely they would install a TT, more likely a PME, so this is likely a moot point.
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I am ideed, I am trying to keep up with you big boys thoughBig_Spark said:
I do know a bit about how electrickery works, but I wasn't trying to tell the people here who clearly know loads more than me how to do their jobs, sorry if I came over like that. I'm just trying to confirm stuff and understand it personally.Big_Spark said:
I'll leave you to argue about that, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with it.Spark123 said:
That's exactly what I wanted to hear, thanks for the clarification. Although it had been mentioned I wasn't sure if it was agreed on. Cheers.Big_Spark said:
Anyway, thourougly enjoyed reading this thread, I think healthy debate is good, keeps us all on our toes.
I am curious as to whether my supply cable needs earthing, but unfortunately I'm one of those laymen that knows what SWA looks like, but not sure about other possibilities and what the effect is. If anyone would like to enlighten me I'd be very greatful
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Big_Spark
Phil, I hope, that my earlier comments were not taken the wrong way, it is certianly not my intention to insult anyone!!
Regarding your cable, can you describe it?
Regarding your cable, can you describe it?
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Cheers Big_Spark, didn't take it as an insult. I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I browse this forum as a DIYer in order to learn from reading posts and asking questions. I'm certainly no expert, but like to think I can provide useful input occasionally. It also provides a welcome distraction when I'm sat at my desk at work sometimes
My Supply cable is about 2 inch accross and covered in some sort of cloth that looks to have been dipped in some sort of tar or something. I meant to have a proper look last night when I got home, but completely forgot. If you need more details I'll check tonight and even grab a photo, I know you like photos
Oh the house was built about the 50's i think if that helps at all
My Supply cable is about 2 inch accross and covered in some sort of cloth that looks to have been dipped in some sort of tar or something. I meant to have a proper look last night when I got home, but completely forgot. If you need more details I'll check tonight and even grab a photo, I know you like photos
Oh the house was built about the 50's i think if that helps at all
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Big_Spark
Sounds like one of the old Oil impregnated Paper and Cloth insulated cables.
Depending on when it was made, the cores may have insulation known as VIR (Vulcanised Insulating Rubber) or even PVC. The outer sheath is usually a cloth impregnated with a rubber/oil/tar mix (name escapes me). These cables may have an armoured layer, but most often this is not the case on single phase services or short runs.
Depending on when it was made, the cores may have insulation known as VIR (Vulcanised Insulating Rubber) or even PVC. The outer sheath is usually a cloth impregnated with a rubber/oil/tar mix (name escapes me). These cables may have an armoured layer, but most often this is not the case on single phase services or short runs.
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Okay
Forgot to mention this again but I think I put it in an earlier post, the supply comes from underground, does this make a difference? I would have assumed that they should be armoured in some way, but I guess you never can tell. I'll have a god look tonight and see what I can see.
Cheers again
Phil
Forgot to mention this again but I think I put it in an earlier post, the supply comes from underground, does this make a difference? I would have assumed that they should be armoured in some way, but I guess you never can tell. I'll have a god look tonight and see what I can see.
Cheers again
Phil
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