How serious are these problems re new patio?

[kingandy2nd]

Ok sounds likes you've got everything in hand.

It's good news that the slabs lift up without issue. I would really recommend setting a time limit (7 or 14 days) for him to come and rectify his work before you start taking it apart, or instruct anyone else to do work on patio.

I very much doubt that the original guy will take this matter any further, but you're better off covering your back in case he rocks up later and says 'well I would have fixed it but you didn't give me a chance'. For the sake of a week or two it would be better to have peace of mind.

I would also recommend that you tell him that he has the same amount of time to collect his tools or you will dispose of them.

 

[gregers]

bejesus they look even worse.

 

[Deleted2797112]

You're a very trusting person! Change the lock on your garage PDQ.

 

[kingandy2nd]

You're a very trusting person! Change the lock on your garage PDQ.

Totally agree on that one too.

 

[yinhong]

It's good news that the slabs lift up without issue. I would really recommend setting a time limit (7 or 14 days) for him to come and rectify his work before you start taking it apart, or instruct anyone else to do work on patio.

I very much doubt that the original guy will take this matter any further, but you're better off covering your back in case he rocks up later and says 'well I would have fixed it but you didn't give me a chance'. For the sake of a week or two it would be better to have peace of mind.

Sorry, I should've been clearer. I have only lifted them up to check that they can be removed easily, but I've left them in place otherwise. I have moved the loose slabs to the garage however.

You're a very trusting person! Change the lock on your garage PDQ.

Thanks for being kind, but I know I've been an idiot and I won't be making that mistake again. I will be changing the lock on my garage first thing tomorrow.

Thanks again. I will keep you updated.

 

[yinhong]

The contractor's reply:

Dear xxxxxxxx,

As per your text message requesting me to visit you on Tuesday 24th June; I visited you this morning to discuss the patio. I did however try to contact you several times by phone beforehand.

I clearly asked you about any concerns you had and advised I would rectify these concerns as you felt the patio was not level in a certain place, despite being more than satisfied on Monday 23rd June. I would like to make it clear the patio slabs were chosen by yourselves therefore you will know that these are not an even surface.

Today I asked why you had not mentioned concerns on Monday 23rd June and you became aggressive and unable to communicate in an appropriate manner. As I walked away, not being able to speak to you in this manner you pushed me from behind and also grabbed my arm, shouting and still being unreasonable. To which my work colleague was present.

I and others worked very hard to ensure that the job was correct. We carried out extra work as asked and for this there was no charge. To date  I have not received any payment from yourselves for materials or labour etc.  I have a receipt for the concrete, which I paid for on my card. I will ensure this is forwarded to yourselves for payment to be made plus labour and other costs. I have previously sent you an invoice.

I advised you earlier that no payment had been received and you said that I would not be paid.
I have sought legal advice on this matter and would appreciate you're compliance on order to deal with this matter in a non threatening manner.

I trust that the email address you have contacted me on is now you're preferred email address for correspondence as I have previously had another email for yourselves?

Regards
******* **** ********

Complete lies, of course, but it's ****ed me off that he's not only tried to defend his work but has now accused ME of being aggressive! Can we swear on this forum?!!

Right, now I'm a bit calmer, here's the breakdown:

As per your text message requesting me to visit you on Tuesday 24th June; I visited you this morning to discuss the patio. I did however try to contact you several times by phone beforehand.

I contacted him on Tuesday by text asking him to come round to discuss a few things, to which he gave me a four miss calls but I wanted him to reply by text because I didn't want to get into an argument over the phone. But since I hadn't heard from him by Wednesday afternoon, I gave him a call and he told me Friday 5:15pm was the earliest he could come to see me as he was on another job, to which I agreed. Thursday morning he arrived at 7pm unannounced, no phone call. And you know the rest.

I clearly asked you about any concerns you had and advised I would rectify these concerns as you felt the patio was not level in a certain place, despite being more than satisfied on Monday 23rd June.

Yes, he did ask me about my concerns. Yesterday morning, after I complained! His reply was, to quote, "The patio DOES drain away from the house, the water will drain from the house. Let me bring a hosepipe tomorrow and show you." I said you don't need to do that, because it's clear that it won't.

I would like to make it clear the patio slabs were chosen by yourselves therefore you will know that these are not an even surface.

This is seriously his defence for the slopes.

Today I asked why you had not mentioned concerns on Monday 23rd June and you became aggressive and unable to communicate in an appropriate manner. As I walked away, not being able to speak to you in this manner you pushed me from behind and also grabbed my arm, shouting and still being unreasonable. To which my work colleague was present.

Just complete lies. My wife was also a witness from the bedroom window.

I and others worked very hard to ensure that the job was correct. We carried out extra work as asked and for this there was no charge. To date I have not received any payment from yourselves for materials or labour etc.  I have a receipt for the concrete, which I paid for on my card. I will ensure this is forwarded to yourselves for payment to be made plus labour and other costs. I have previously sent you an invoice.

There was no 'extra work' that was done free of charge. The only 'invoice' I have received is that short email.

I advised you earlier that no payment had been received and you said that I would not be paid.
I have sought legal advice on this matter and would appreciate you're compliance on order to deal with this matter in a non threatening manner.  

The audacity......:angry:


Anyway, he hasn't really replied to any of my questions about breaking down what he thinks I owe him, and my key and his wheelbarrow, and crucially how would plan to fix the problems.

I'm going to see the CAB for further advice. Will keep you all posted. Thank you very much again.

 

[yinhong]

I have been advised by the CAB to get written reports from professional tradesman to verify my complaints.

Would people in this thread be happy for me to use your comments as evidence, and if needed could I contact you via PM just to verify you are who you are?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I don't think people off a forum will count. You'll need to employ an independent landscaper to do a damning report.

 

[Deleted2797112]

Before you start spending money on expert reports, I think you should consider what you want to achieve. At present, you've suffered no financial loss because you've paid nothing so you have no basis for a court case. The builder on the other hand has spent money - time and materials, so is out of pocket. He has a claim against you.

He's done some work which you appear to have no problem with and he's done some work you're not happy with. The time he spent on the patio is wasted as is the cost of the mortar but your slabs appear to be salvageable if you do it quickly. I'm guessing you just want rid of him so that you can get on with getting the patio done by someone competent.

So this is what I'd do - calculate the value of the work that's been done that you have no problem with - time and materials - and write to him offering that sum in full and final payment. Explain in the letter the details of what is wrong with the patio - it was explained well upthread. Go on to say that you would have been prepared to permit him to rectify the situation but you feel that his threat of violence has caused the relationship to break down irretrievably. Request his written confirmation of acceptance (or rejection) of your offer in full and final settlement. If he accepts, pay him promptly. He may come back with a counter-offer - looks like he wants the cost of the mortar he bought on his card. Don't know how much that is but you might want to allow that to get rid. Forget the keys, change the locks. After you've got his answer, deliver his wheelbarrow back to him at his home or business - take a witness, preferably a large beefy one.

The courts expect the parties in a dispute to attempt to resolve it without court action, so being seen to make a reasonable offer counts in your favour. If he rejects your offer, it's not favourable for him. Based on what you've posted, it's likely he would be awarded the costs of the undisputed work but would struggle with the rest as it's obvious, even to a layman, it's a bad job. So there's no mileage really for him in pushing it to court if you make him a fair offer.

 

[zaby]

I totally agree with ceres. Forget lawyers and reports, and try and sort this out amicably with a quick email back. Start of by quoting his quote:

"please find quotation as discussed to lay slabs and take rubbish away and to supply sand and cement grass seed and top soil
Will be between £1800 £1950
Please don't hesitate to contact me with any queries"

It seems you are happy with the work he did at the front and back of the house? Use B&Q to work out a rough cost of sand, grass seed and top soil. Then work out a how long he spent on the front and sides, and how long it took him to dig up the grass and get it ready for cement. How long did the work take up to that point, 2 days maybe?

Tell him you are prepared to pay for this period, including materials to cover the work he did at the front, side and digging up of the grass at the back.

At this point, tell him you are not prepared to pay for the cost of cement, or the labour from laying the cement onwards, because he failed to excavate the sub-base to allow the new patio to sit 150mm below the damp proof course. This is the fundimental error in his work, which you would have expected him to rectify for free, before the relationship broke down. Also say to him this is in addition to the poor layout of slabs, and blatant slope towards the building, which could cause water to collect above the damp proof course.

Then, using the lower figure he quoted of £1800, maybe offer him something in the region of £800 for the materials and labour for the front, sides, and removal or grass? Don't forget to say that is in full and final settlement. This seems like a nice round figure to get him to feck off.

He might come back with a higher figure, at that point ask for receipts for the sand, grass seed and soil, and a breakdown of his daily work labour costs. And tell him you will come back to him with a revised figure when you have spoken to experts, and your solicitor. But tell him this will take extra time. This bluff might make him reconsider the £800 (or whatever you want to pay).

As for the wheel barrow, throw it away, and say you have included the cost of this in your offer.

He seems like a total cowboy. Making up stories about 'free extra work', the fact that you were violent to him, and not the other way round etc, the fact that he's sought legal advice within a couple of days (bullcrap!), he comes across as someone who's used to dealing with these kind of complaints. But be careful,

Good luck.

 

[ImayKnow]

You couldn't rely on the content of this forum yinhong. Although you get great advice, there is nothing to substantiate the experience of the responders. You need a survey conducting and report producing from a reputable source. Good luck I hope you beat this cowboy.

 

[Deleted2797112]

You couldn't rely on the content of this forum yinhong. Although you get great advice, there is nothing to substantiate the experience of the responders.

Applies to your advice just the same as anyone else's.

 

[ImayKnow]

You couldn't rely on the content of this forum yinhong. Although you get great advice, there is nothing to substantiate the experience of the responders.

Applies to your advice just the same as anyone else's.

Of course, that goes without saying. But what do you think would happen in a court of law if you turn up with unsubstantiated evidence?

 

[Deleted2797112]

I haven't suggested that he does. My advice is to avoid going to court. But as far as small claims are concerned, expert reports aren't essential. Taking detailed photographs and writing a clear description of the problems is usually sufficient for a dispute of this size. The evidence requirements in a small claim are not as rigid as in other courts. Judgement is made on the balance of probability. Spending a significant sum on an expert report for a claim of a few hundred pounds might not be viewed favourably.

 

[xdave]

I can understand why you want to swear at the contractor's response! Don't be too concerned with his claim to have a witness because should it ever get far enough to matter then you have your own as well. People often stand up in civil court and come out with the most outrageous lies and judges are used to seeing through them. If he ever tried to make that claim in court and was deemed to have lied then both him and his witness would be in very serious trouble. The court would take into account the police report you lodged and consistency with your side of events and weigh it on the balance of probability. If you offer to pay a fair price for the work that was acceptable then on the balance of probabilities you have nothing to gain by bringing action. I agree that it sounds very much like this individual is used to being thrown off of sites for poor work and uses bullying tactics to get money back.

However it will never get that far. He won't take you to court as he has already frustrated the option of allowing him to put right at his cost, and as you have not yet paid him anything then you don't need to take him to court.

Ceres' (and others) advice is good - if he has done work that is of an acceptable standard then calculate the cost of that work and pay him in full for it. If any part has not yet been completed then only pay for the bits that have. If he has not done anything above the original agreement then assert that in your response to stamp it out quickly. He then needs to tell you exactly what he believes he has done and you can decide from there. You know what materials he has used and how many hours he has worked so you should be able to calculate a fair price based on the overall scope of the work. You should not pay him for the concrete as it is waste and technically aggrieving you anyway. Offer it back to him if he still claims title to it but remove and lock up your slabs before allowing him on site to remove it to prevent criminal damage.

I personally would go one step further and get quotes from a handful of tradesman to excavate and dispose of the concrete he laid and deduct that from the value of the work you are happy with. The cost of disposing of that concrete will be greater than the cost of disposing of top soil (which can be given away easily - even with turf as people will compost it). I am hoping he didn't just dump it anyway - have you seen the waste transfer ticket for any waste he took away? However if you want a quick and amicable resolution then you might want to just swallow the extra cost he has left you with.

Still continue to pursue with trading standards. If enough of his clients complain then they may be able to take action to stop him trading or at the very least ensure that his poor standard of work and intimidation tactics are made a public record.