ID cards, are you scared?

[JohnD]

So how come I'm still not scared? Am I just stupid? Or just honest with nothing to fear...

We'd better tell the author to try harder

 

[Softus]

If the government threatened me with the wrath of my step-daughter's [female] headteacher, then I'd be quaking...

 

[masona]

...are you scared?

No. What is there to be scared of?

Do you also feel guilty when you see a police car?

Not exactly guilty but can we trust the database details they hold?

They are taking our freedom and our privacy away & they will have power which they will never give it up, just like the Government. You could even be breaking the law without knowing it and that will be scary, then it will be too late. The EU now taken over the Queen of England so our Government is rewriting the rules towards the police state. Do we really need this?, Blair does

Do you any of you will think ID card will seriously think it will stop terrorists and suicide bombers?

How does it feel to have your ID barcode on your forehead because that's exactly how I feel with the ID card.

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure about the barcode on the back of the driving licenses. The number it translates to doesn't correspond to anything else on the photocard, so it must be some sort of database identifier.

All i can say is no place i have ever been ID'd at has scanned it, and most UK shops only have EAN barcode scanners - they will only scan 8 or 13 digit barcodes with a starter, ender and a middle divider. The one on the back of the driving license is purely numerical, no dividers etc.

I'm not scared of ID cards, though i cant see how it will help combat terrorism.

Anyone ever looked at their drivers license photocard under a UV light?
And their switch card, for that matter?
I was in Flares in Don last night (they have really powerful UV lamps, look like sodium bulbs but are blue/UV) and i happened to take out my drivers license, and it has 3 UV images on it! I never realised before! So does my switch card!

 

[ellal]

This bit is made up to frighten you:

Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented. This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of NatWest, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licenses will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.

Unfortunately not..

This is taken from the bill itself!

Records of provision of information

9 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an
individual—
(a) particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the
individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
(b) particulars of every person to whom such information has been
provided on such an occasion;
(c) other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision
of the information.

Most places will have terminals to check ID for the same reason as they have had to get 'chip & pin' machines - if they don't, they will be liable for any fraud or illegal transaction when the register hasn't been checked!

So, get used to being forced to prove who you are regularly - and of course the system errors which will cause major inconvenience!

 

[JohnD]

This is taken from the bill itself!

And can you see the words "shop" or "alcohol" or "cigarettes" there?

Do you think you can find "Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal" in the Bill?

When the police look at your driving licence, and then check it through PNC to DVLA, a record of the search is made. When you show your driving licence to the bouncer at your night club as evidence that you are 18, he doesn't, and even if he wanted to know what DVLA said about you, he couldn't. Neither could your bank if you took in your Electricity bill, your pasport and your driving licence, find out anything about your use of electricity, your travel habits, or your driving.

 

[ellal]

This is taken from the bill itself!

And can you see the words "shop" or "alcohol" or "cigarettes" there?

Do you think you can find "Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal" in the Bill?

Did you read the quote?..here it is again..

Records of provision of information

9 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an
individual—
(a) particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the
individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
(b) particulars of every person to whom such information has been
provided on such an occasion;
(c) other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.

In simple terms, That means that every time you are asked for ID, a record of when, why and to whom, is recorded on the NIR.

And even the minister in charge of the project (Andy Burnham) has stated that in a few years time, we will be required to provide ID many times a day for routine purchases/services..

Of course you don't see every individual business/service listed in the bill, (as is always the case) - the wording covers every eventuality..!!

 

[JohnD]

In simple terms, That means that every time you are asked for ID, a record of when, why and to whom, is recorded on the NIR.

NO IT DOES NOT!!!

If I am operating a fairground ride, and ask to see your ID card because you are asking for the pensioner's concessionary price, I look at it and give it back!! i don't put it in a machine!!

The bit you are quoting refers to a record being made on occasions when information has been provided from the central register. I have no access to the central register. I haven't used a terminal. There is no record that I have looked at your card. And the text you have quoted doesn't say that there must be, it doesn't even say that there may be.

The same applies in a shop or pub.

 

[hermes]

He'll be publishing "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" next!

Isn't that the title of the new Harry Potter?

 

[ellal]

In simple terms, That means that every time you are asked for ID, a record of when, why and to whom, is recorded on the NIR.

NO IT DOES NOT!!!

If I am operating a fairground ride, and ask to see your ID card because you are asking for the pensioner's concessionary price, I look at it and give it back!! i don't put it in a machine!!

The bit you are quoting refers to a record being made on occasions when information has been provided from the central register. I have no access to the central register. I haven't used a terminal. There is no record that I have looked at your card.

Again incorrect..

It refers to every time a persons ID is checked AGAINST the register..!

That check will be of three types - a 'chip & pin' check for low level purchases, and a 'biometric' check for higher level purchases or services.

A visual check is not verified against the register, but as I said, since a retailer/service provider will be liable, then there will be terminals in basically everywhere you see a chip & pin machine..

And guess what - the government are going to charge an as yet unspecified fee for that check..So not only will we pay for the card/NIR, we'll also be paying through higher prices!

And the text you have quoted doesn't say that there must be, it doesn't even say that there may be.

It also doesn't say 'every health service, benefit office etc..' (anywhere in the bill) , but how else do you think your ID will be checked in order, as the government says, to cut down on benefit fraud, health tourism etc..?

But don't take my word for it..

"A Pin number would be a new intermediate way of checking a card was authentic," Mr Burnham said.

"The verification services that could be offered would be applied appropriately according to the business process that was involved," he said.

That could range from a visual check to use of a Pin number to, in the case of "high-value transactions", biometric verification, he added.

And if you're convinced pubs aren't interested...check out the fingerprint entry schemes being launched in Yeovil nightclubs - being introduced as an interim measure before ID verification via the NIR is available!

Revellers in the Somerset town of Yeovil, often seen as Britain's answer to the Wild West on a Friday and Saturday night, were this weekend getting to grips with a unique scheme which is more science fiction than Wild West. Customers entering the town's six main late-night drinking and dancing joints were being asked to register their personal details, have their photograph taken and submit to a biometric finger scan.

The idea was hatched by licensees, the police and local councillors.

 

[ellal]

Just so that everyone knows the score..

The locations of the passport interrogation centres have just been announced - the start of the ID registration system..!

How far will you have to travel to be treated like a criminal?..

Face-to-face interviews lasting up to 20 minutes are to be compulsory for all passport applicants, even for renewals, a measure that will dramatically increase the time it takes to get a new passport.


Plans to interview first-time applicants have been known since last year and will be implemented later this year, when an estimated 600,000 adults will be required to attend a face-to-face interview with staff of the Identity and Passport Service (IPS), the new name of the UK Passport Service, as of April 1.

But now it has emerged, buried in a IPS briefing, that all applicants - including those who are simply renewing a passport - will have to be interviewed in person by 2009.

BTW, for those who don't know, even if you opt out from getting an ID card before 2010, your details will still be entered on the NIR, AND you'll be charged for that card anyway!

For those who wish to avoid this, and make sure their passport lasts long enough to hopefully see this scheme killed off, latest info here

www.renewforfreedom.org

 

[JohnD]

In simple terms, That means that every time you are asked for ID, a record of when, why and to whom, is recorded on the NIR.

"I am operating a fairground ride, and ask to see your ID card "

So I have asked for your ID "Can I see your ID card please?" And I have looked at it with my eyes and given it back to you.

How do you imagine a record is created on any central register of me looking at your card?

 

[ellal]

I'll refer to the original bit that you said was 'scaremongering'..

Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity.

Everywhere there is a check via a terminal to the NIR, there will be a record of that..

So, if you still think the original statement is scaremongering, then let me ask you your question...where in the text did it mention 'fairground rides'?

And why not?..Because as has already said, there are 3 levels of checks, One of which can be visual. And yes, if you wish to play semantics, then my line (not the one you say is scaremongering, as that already does) should have included...'where a reference is made to the NIR' (happy?), but what you don't seem to think will happen is that this will become the norm - I have also stated the reasons why it will. In the latest studies on the scheme, portable wireless readers for the police (and hence anyone who can show a need for one) are being trialed..

So, back to your example..I would say that that was more misleading than the statement you are objecting to, because where is the 'risk of fraud'?..money in the hand, or no ride! - therefore only a need for a 'visual' in case you have to check a person's age for a ride - and that is no different from now. In fact, since it won't be compulsory to carry, then the 'visual' will be as it always has been - a quick look at the person!

Everywhere there is now a 'chip & pin' will eventually have a similar (or biometric) terminal linked to the NIR, and every time it is used, a record will be made..!

This IS the design of the system.

So, answer me this. If this was not the intention, then why have the NIR behind the ID card at all? (and the express clauses about data recording)..Why the need to record all transactions etc?

Many countries are looking at Electronic/Biometric ID cards, but only the UK is thinking of the NIR - Why?