In response to Bernard Green

[Europlex]

I think you are missing the point.

Consumers can buy good and bad equipment for similar prices. The bad stuff is really bad. People should know how bad.

The same issues these ungraded alarms have extend through to the higher grades of wired alarms.

I'm not missing the point at all, the pictured device is one of the favourite ways of defeating alarm systems, I have come across NOTHING electronic in 40+ years in the business.

 

[cybergibbons]

I'm not missing the point at all, the pictured device is one of the favourite ways of defeating alarm systems, I have come across NOTHING electronic in 40+ years in the business.

Again, it's this really strange attitude that because something hasn't happened in the past, it won't in the future.

Do you use this principal in every aspect of life?

 

[mdf290]

Again, it's this really strange attitude that because something hasn't happened in the past, it won't in the future.

Do you use this principal in every aspect of life?

Equally if something has never happened in the past WHY will it start happening in the future?

TBH there is a market for GPS fogging devices. That will be criminals with the new GPS locator equipped electronic tags. Go and seek out a market where you will be able to make money instead of concentrating on a market that doesn't exist.

 

[mdf290]

This is getting ridiculous now. I have googled my fingers to the bone and have yet to find a single report on a burglary where jamming the alarm was cited as the method of attack.



I personally after a few years of dealing solely with cheap diy toot have yet to hear of a single case of a jamming attack.

There is plenty of noise on the internet about the ability of wireless alarms being jammed but it seems to be all speculation by various people or companies with devices to sell.

laughable really.

Here buy my electronic gismo!...
What will it do...
Well press this button and it will set off a wireless alarm.
But I'm a burglar . . I don't want to set off the alarm...
I'll just choose another house thanks... keep your gismo.
But honest you need to buy it , I have spent ages developing it . It's the next big crimewave honest...
What's it look like...
Look it's desguised as a packet of fags..
Why is it disguised?
Er because if you get caught with it you will be arrested..
are you taking the **** , Why would I want to carry one then I get frisked twice a week?
You can have two for one . . special offer..
Nah mate stick it....oh is that your car driving off? . . . (snigger) natch!

 

[Europlex]

I'm not missing the point at all, the pictured device is one of the favourite ways of defeating alarm systems, I have come across NOTHING electronic in 40+ years in the business.

Again, it's this really strange attitude that because something hasn't happened in the past, it won't in the future.

Do you use this principal in every aspect of life?

Remember it's Yale equipment we are 'discussing' here.

To use someone else's vernacular, 'Billy burglar' will go in with the hammer or his boot at the door.

 

[bernardgreen]

This is getting ridiculous now. I have googled my fingers to the bone and have yet to find a single report on a burglary where jamming the alarm was cited as the method of attack.

Google might find some pages of court records that are accessible to public searching.

for example http://www.thelawpages.com/criminal...d-(criminal-damage,-burglary,-theft)-37-3.law
Unfortunately the type of equipment is not described in these overviews of the court, charge and sentence handed down.

 

[bernardgreen]

Equally if something has never happened in the past WHY will it start happening in the future?

Public demand, crack heads becoming more desperate as their sources of funds become better protected will need better means to break in to homes. They will create a market for alarm dis-abling equipment. It was car thieves who created the market for key fob blockers to prevent people being abe to lock their cars when they parked them in the station car park and caught the train to work.

TBH there is a market for GPS fogging devices.

Keep it under your hat but newer tags without a vaild GPS result squark alarm.

 

[cybergibbons]

I don't know where to start with this. You've essentially argued that the alarms you fit are pointless and a dummy bell box would be a cheaper and better solution.

You also seem to be making things up that I haven't said or inferred.

An alarm ANY alarm does 95% of its work simply by having a visible bell box whether the alarm works or not.

The real world that sees old ladies wanting a cheap alarm because they are on a fixed pension income

So, are you saying that a dummy bell box alone is almost as effective as an alarm, with lower costs, quicker time to install, no ongoing maintenance costs, and no risk of false alarms?

So why are you taking £150-300 from people who don't have money to spend on an alarm? And I'm the one harming these people?

Your position assumes that the alarm working is the be all and end all of an alarms use.

This isn't my position, and I haven't said anything to say it is.

My position is that vulnerabilities in alarms should be fixed by the alarm companies, especially if they are made aware of them.

You make the incorrect assumption that if it can be jammed or has vunerabilities people should be warned because it is rubbish. You then go on to say so is everything else but CRUCIALLY you don't offer any suggestion as to what IS an invunerable system.

I've not said everything else is rubbish. There is no invulnerable system. Just systems that actually provide a decent level of protection.

I do offer solutions to the vulnerabilities found in alarm systems.

Your arguments would be far stronger if you didn't, well, make things up. Seems you and JohnD suffer from the same issue of clouding opinion and fact.

Your strategy of just rubbishing alarms offers no solutions and can only have one outcome.

It clearly doesn't have only one outcome. How have you come to this conclusion? Or are you trying to exaggerate to try and make a point?

There is a place for budget and diy alarms as Yale will tell you , they do'nt develop their products for fun they do it because there is a market for them. That market is people who cannot afford a graded alarms.

Yale Easyfit Kit 2 ~£270
Pyronix Enforcer ~£235 (1 less DC but two keyfobs, no dummy bellbox)

The security of the Pyronix kit is far, far better. It's also cheaper.

The Yale Easyfit stuff adds token rolling code protection because it is a buzzword.

But worse. If your campaign encourages just one person to decide not to have am alarm fitted because your testimony has given them doubts you will be responsible for the ensuing burglary suffered at that home.

You seriously think this, don't you? I guess you fit the alarms at cost, because otherwise you might cause someone to decide not to fit an alarm based on price, and then you will be responsible for the ensuing burglary.

 

[cybergibbons]

This is getting ridiculous now. I have googled my fingers to the bone and have yet to find a single report on a burglary where jamming the alarm was cited as the method of attack.

I don't understand why you are spending time on this. Are you trying to disprove something I have said?

 

[cybergibbons]

I'm not missing the point at all, the pictured device is one of the favourite ways of defeating alarm systems, I have come across NOTHING electronic in 40+ years in the business.

Again, it's this really strange attitude that because something hasn't happened in the past, it won't in the future.

Do you use this principal in every aspect of life?

Remember it's Yale equipment we are 'discussing' here.

To use someone else's vernacular, 'Billy burglar' will go in with the hammer or his boot at the door.

Sorry, I might not have been clear on this. I'm not just discussing Yale equipment. Alarms a lot more expensive and a lot more "advanced" in terms of marketing are actually not any better than Yale or Friedland. But they do have much bigger legal budgets to try and sue me...

The things I want to change are:
1. Alarm companies should have a responsible and open attitude to vulnerability reporting, disclosure and fixing.
2. Standards should be improved to require independent testing of alarms to ensure they match up with marketing (many of them don't, badly).
3. Standards should allow consumers and installers to differentiate between alarms better. At the moment, one grade 2 alarm can be hugely different to another in terms of actual security provided, but by standards they are they same.

I'm speaking to people in the working group who are revising the standard about this. They mostly seem behind it, but it's years away.

 

[alumni]

So, slowalarms admits he's not approved or professional. He now also admits he fits cheap toot.
Targets little old ladies who worry etc.

Strange how sees a price jump from £150 to £700 for decent kit. Conveniently missing out the bit he's comparing a diy to an installed price. Even then he knows the decent kit can be bought for very similar price as the toot he's pushed on regardless with flogging and installing the toot. Begs the serious question, why?

Now he goes all defensive over Yale whilst refusing to accept the product has weaknesses.
Perhaps he's realised his business model is flawed and that's why he's looking to be employed now.

 

[cybergibbons]

So, slowalarms admits he's not approved or professional. He now also admits he fits cheap toot.
Targets little old ladies who worry etc.

Strange how sees a price jump from £150 to £700 for decent kit. Conveniently missing out the bit he's comparing a diy to an installed price. Even then he knows the decent kit can be bought for very similar price as the toot he's pushed on regardless with flogging and installing the toot. Begs the serious question, why?

Now he goes all defensive over Yale whilst refusing to accept the product has weaknesses.
Perhaps he's realised his business model is flawed and that's why he's looking to be employed now.

He's so concerned someone might not have an alarm system, he must be fitting them at cost, or he'll have all those break-ins on his score card.

 

[cybergibbons]

So some prices off the net for a company in Yorkshire:
* Yale 6200 normally £272 special offer save 30% £199
* Yale 6400 normally £430 special offer save 30% £299

I can get a Pyronix Enforcer fitted in London for £450. It's much better, and not just in terms of security.

 

[mdf290]

So, slowalarms admits he's not approved or professional. He now also admits he fits cheap toot.
Targets little old ladies who worry etc.

Strange how sees a price jump from £150 to £700 for decent kit. Conveniently missing out the bit he's comparing a diy to an installed price. Even then he knows the decent kit can be bought for very similar price as the toot he's pushed on regardless with flogging and installing the toot. Begs the serious question, why?

Now he goes all defensive over Yale whilst refusing to accept the product has weaknesses.
Perhaps he's realised his business model is flawed and that's why he's looking to be employed now.

I am self employed now as I have spent the majority of my adult life. The alarms are and always have been a second string to whatever my 'day' job is.

 

[cybergibbons]

Again, it's this really strange attitude that because something hasn't happened in the past, it won't in the future.

Do you use this principal in every aspect of life?

Equally if something has never happened in the past WHY will it start happening in the future?

TBH there is a market for GPS fogging devices. That will be criminals with the new GPS locator equipped electronic tags. Go and seek out a market where you will be able to make money instead of concentrating on a market that doesn't exist.

I haven't said it will happen. I've said it could happen. But keep on installing alarms with problems without thinking it could happen, it's fine.

Why have you assumed there is no money in this? Or is that another straw man you are putting up?