Incorrect info from Tado?

[Neilgriff63]

Hello,

New to this forum. I was searching for info on smart thermostats and chatted to Tado for information but I think they gave me misleading info.

I have a new house with Ideal Logic H12 with ESI 3247B programmer. I have upstairs and downstairs zones with ESI ESRTD3 thermostats.

I wish to upgrade all this with Nest or Tado and have my downstairs thermostat located in lounge and not the hall.

I contacted Tado with all the above information to get compatibility info. I was told that the programmer is not compatible with the thermostat so I need an extension kit. This makes sense. Then later I was told that the Tado system will not control my hot water as it isn’t compatible. I tried to clarify saying that if the programmer is replaced, then it makes it compatible, they they closed call saying sorry they are unable to help. Which is odd.

So I still have an open question(s).

Given my system, can I replace with full Tado and control hot water and still control 2 heating zones? If so, if I move the thermostats, what happens to the wiring behind the thermostats?

I think Tado is more compatible as I can use 2 thermostats with 1 extension module, is this a correct assumption.

But I do like the look of Nest. Could I get this to work?

Thanks for any insight.

Neil

 

[Neilgriff63]

This was later clarification from Tado. So it seems a simple Tado smart thermostat is not possible. Surprised given it is a new house. Can anyone recommend a Smart option please?

.............I didn't say "to control my hot water purchase an extension to replace my programmer and also purchase a smart thermostat". Although the name of the bundle is Smart Thermostat - Starter Kit V3+ with Hot Water Control, you will not be able to use the Extension Kit to control hot water, because tado is not compatible with your programmer, that controls your hot water. You will only be able to use the Extension Kit to move the downstairs thermostat from the hallway to the lounge. Do not let the name of the bundle confuse you, because the Extension Kit does not only control hot water. It can also be used to connect a Smart Thermostat, which controls a radiator heating system, wirelessly to the boiler. Since your downstairs thermostat is wired and since you're not happy with it's position, the thermostat will not be replaced by a Smart Thermostat. You will need to connect an Extension Kit to the boiler instead, which will then act as a wireless receiver for the Smart Thermostat thus enabling you to place the Smart Thermostat in the lounge (or in any other room), because it will no longer be connected with wires to the boiler.
Unfortunately, the Extension Kit and the Smart Thermostat will not work with the programmer removed. You can control your heating with tado, but you can't control your hot water with tado. You will need to continue to control hot water with the existing programmer........

 

[Neilgriff63]

I think I have got this - after reading a few posts from Stem.

I will need 2 Nest heat links or 2 Tado extensions.

Designate 1 thermostat for ch and water and the other for ch. use the existing cabling to the thermostats but swap to 24vterminals to power the thermostats. As long as I am still switching to the valves I should be ok. Hardest part is neatly replacing a single programmer with 2 heat links and getting power to second and the cables to thermostat carrying 24v (if I use battery then wires not required).

Hopefully I am on right track. Which could mean I did not get the right steer from Tado???

 

[ericmark]

I can't really work out why new houses have zones? Each TRV forms a zone without using zone valves, however since fitted then having the thermostat in the hall is the correct place with most houses.

So to basic idea, the TRV controls the room temperature, if you want different temperatures at different times of day, then you replace the wax head for an electronic head and you can program in the temperatures required.

However there is a problem with using TRV's that in the summer they will not turn off the boiler, so having a thermostat in a cool room on entrance floor with no outside door or alternative form of heating is the normal way to stop the boiler cycling all summer. But often that room does not exist, so the hall is next best option.

The idea of the zones was so down stairs heated in day, up stairs at night, however that is rarely wanted, children go to their rooms to do home work during the day, and heat raises anyway, so being able to turn off down stairs during the night OK, but not turning off upper rooms in the day.

I am rather disappointed with Nest, the actual thermostat works A1, that works well, but the linking with the energenie mihome TRV heads is not working, so having to program times independently on TRV and wall thermostat, which means the £40 each for the programmable heads to link with Nest was really a waste of money, I could have got stand alone programmable heads for £10 each.

Also it seems to work wrong way around, the TRV should tell wall thermostat what to do, not wall thermostat tell the TRV heads what to do, however had it worked simply turning one dial in the hall and all rooms auto adjusting to new temperature would have likely worked.

So you have Hive, Nest, EvoHome, Tado all with slightly different methods of control. So question one is if the boiler is OpenTherm, if it is then may as well use that control, Hive does not have OpenTherm and with EvoHome it's an add on module. Don't know Tado. Nest does have OpenTherm.

Next is how much do you want to spend? At £50 each for wifi TRV heads plus a hub you can easy end up spending £1000. It would take a lot to recuperate that, so I used some wifi and some bluetooth latter only £15 each.

Again what do you want it to do? Nest works out how long it needs to heat for, so it gives the boiler a long burn that allows the boiler to modulate if it's that type of boiler, not a clue what the others do. However the Energenie MiHome TRV heads will connect to your phone and can be set for geofencing without the need of a fancy wall thermostat.

For my wife and I that may work, when we go on a caravan holiday the heating auto switches down, and when a 100 miles from home it starts to heat up again, but for a short time of less than 12 hours likely not worth the effort, houses don't cool that quickly.

Having a TRV head which senses when a window is opened well really a door, and turns off the heating automatic in that room while you unload the car is a great idea, but they only cost £10 each, so why all the expensive stuff?

So look at the cheap option first will they do what you want? There is a Bluetooth version so you can set with the phone. As you go up in price you get the wifi versions, some will work stand alone, some have to have a wall thermostat, well if you can call it a wall thermostat, the EvoHome is more like a hub to wall thermostat, it allows you to set each room independent.

The problem is if you buy cheap then want more your throwing the old away, however I bought 4 expensive ones which don't want to follow so in many ways the 5 cheap bluetooth ones work better.

 

[Neilgriff63]

I want a system where I don’t waste heating when I am away, but I want to have hot water when I return, and also a warm house. We travel a lot so water cools after a few days. When I had a combi this was no issue.

The only decision I want to make is which system, Next, Tado or even Hive (Ecobee if it was in UK) and am I on tight path with wiring.

But I would appreciate it if someone could confirm what Tado say - that I can’t use it to control hot water and must retain my programmer for that. As they are both switching devices I don’t understand why.

 

[flameport]

Tado appear reluctant to provide any real info via their website, but it appears that their 'extension kit' is required to use a thermostat wirelessly, their thermostats can be wired or wireless, but the wireless requires the extension kit. Whether you can have more than one is not clear.
Given that their email replies are inconsistent and unhelpful, and their website contains next to no information on how to actually install their products, I suggest not buying Tado.

On the other hand, both Nest and Hive will do what you want. 2 receivers/heatlinks, and 2 wireless thermostats for control of 2 zones and hot water. Existing programmer and thermostats removed.

 

[Neilgriff63]

Thanks flameport. I didn’t get a comfortable feeling dealing with Tado over chat.

 

[Neilgriff63]

Flameport, would you have a preference between Nest and Hive? Identical install for the switches and thermostats?

 

[ericmark]

Let me compare Nest and Hive:-
Nest has volt free contacts and will also with with OpenTherm, if you want three zones then Nest Gen 3 and a Nest e would be required the TRV head made by Energenie follows the wall thermostat. I have Nest installed and it does seem to work out what heat is required however in use I find the follow command is a bit hit and miss.
Hive again would need two units one duel and one single, the duel does not have volt free contacts, heard reports of Hive also having problems linking with the TRV heads, it works in the reverse of Nest the heads tell Hive to run for a 1/2 hour run if the target is above current.

Nest hand Energenie support geofencing, I don't know if Hive will. As to DHW this is what it says for Nest which is not really geofencing, but Hive also has problems, seems April 6th 2018 the rules changed, I assume this is why Hive brought out their TRV heads so it will comply with new rules!

Which is best is really down to the algorithms used, and to be frank we don't know which is best. I think maybe best idea is sticking a pin in while blind folded.

 

[Neilgriff63]

Volt free contact, presumably on the heatsinks(2) Then I just switch the 240 to the control valve as the thermostat will wirelessly communicate to heat sink. Nest may be easy option and I prefer the look of the user interface. The TRV on the hive also add another dimension. I will need to find out how many TRV a single Hive can manage.

 

[muggles]

Nest is superior to Hive, definitely. Have you looked at the Honeywell T6 range though? A much cheaper option with great control logic. You'd need a T6 Wired for one zone, and either a T6R-HW or T6RWP for the other, the latter also providing your hot water control

 

[Neilgriff63]

Andrew, thanks for sharing, especially clarifying the exact models to control both zones plus hot water.

What was your take on the Tado response?

Neil

 

[muggles]

I've never liked Tado, got a couple of customers who have it and it just doesn't seem as intuitive as other systems which are available. The white text on a white background can be hard to read in certain lights as well. They're also now linked to Homeserve, who will advertise at you through the app

 

[Neilgriff63]

Muggles, just looking at the Honeywell. For the money it looks OK. Has Geofencing and Alexa. I presume it will need 2 heat link equivalents?

 

[muggles]

Muggles, just looking at the Honeywell. For the money it looks OK. Has Geofencing and Alexa. I presume it will need 2 heat link equivalents?

Yes, all included in the boxes